Stop the World, I Want to Get Off!

In this episode of Unspoken Security AJ Nash and Lance James (CEO, Unit 221b) talk about leadership, corporate culture, work/life balance, and the challenges of processing grief and trauma in an industry that never really stops.

This conversation goes beyond the superficial, digging deeper into the importance and impact of building a healthy and supporting culture around the needs of people instead of just talking about work/life balance while incentivizing prioritizing work over family and health (physical and mental).

Lance and AJ each also share their personal stories of the tragic deaths of loved ones, how they grieved (in very different ways), and how the experiences changed them both personally and professionally. While there is no "right" way to grieve, these stories remind us that hardship is universal and we all benefit from knowing people who can empathize, understand, and support us when we need them most...especially during the holiday season.

Lastly, as is customary on all episodes of Unspoken Security, AJ asks his guest to reveal something they had never talked about before (something "unspoken")...and Lance shares a great story that is sure to be interesting and amusing to anyone who hears it.

Transcript

Unspoken Security Ep 4: Stop the World, I Want to Get Off!

Lance James: [00:00:00] you got to just have faith in that the floor is going to still hold while you're walking around, and then also that the people are going to do their thing, and I like that you said, if it isn't illegal this and that.

in the long run, the number one thing humans want in this world, work or outside of work, is to be understood.

AJ Nash: [00:01:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Unspoken Security, brought to you by ZeroFox, the only unified external cybersecurity platform. I'm your host, AJ Nash. For those who don't know me personally or are first time listeners, I'm a traditional intelligence guy who spent nearly 20 years in the intelligence community, both within the U.

S. Air Force and then as a defense contractor. Most of that time was spent at NSA. I've been in the private sector for about eight years now, primarily building or helping other people build effective intelligence driven security practices. I'm passionate about intelligence, security, public speaking, mentoring, and teaching.

I'm also deeply committed to servant leadership, which is why I completed my master's degree in organizational leadership at Gonzaga university. Go Zags!

Lance James: Okay.

AJ Nash: The goal of this podcast is to bring all of these elements together with some incredible guests and have authentic, unfiltered conversations, even debates about a wide range of challenging topics.

Most of us are faced with today. This will not be the typical polished podcast. You may hear or see my dog. Uh, people may swear here. We [00:02:00] may argue or debate, and that's all okay. Think of this podcast as the conversation you might overhear at a bar after a long day at one of the larger cybersecurity conferences.

These are the conversations we usually have when nobody's listening today. 

Our guest is Lance James, CEO of Unit 221b a member of several advisory boards, a lifelong troublemaker, but the good kind of trouble. Well, you know, mostly and a dear friend of mine, uh, Lance to help the audience better connect with you.

Uh, can you tell us about your background and some of the greawork Unit 221b doeses to take down bad guys?

Lance James: Sure. Um, I have a long history of back, um, uh, of being in what we'd call today's cybersecurity. I just call it information security. I think if you're old enough, you just call it that, uh, combining counterintelligence with cyber security. So I always liked, you know, bridging the, like, for example, the feds with the hackers and we utilize that to chase bad guys.

So 221B is the same concept where we work a lot with, you know, whether it's HSI or FBI or whatever. Right. Um, and we actually worked to pretty much put [00:03:00] actual some handcuffs to the work we do, right? Um, recently, and I'm sure these MGM hackers are going to hate it when I say this, but we know who you are.

And that's kind of the awesome work we do. And we tend to know most of these new hacks, uh, uh, and who they are. If you're a teenager hacking, we know who you are. so it's kind of been an area. And, uh, we, we, uh, other stuff that we figured out at 221b is when the Twitter got hacked, the, those kids ended up in jail.

That was our work, handiwork with the FBI. And, um. You know, just a few different ones along the way. I mean, we just, uh, we're always, uh, at something. We've also helped some, uh, video game companies, uh, and deal with the, uh, online harassment. Uh, and we actually even changed the law in Washington state and in Canada, uh, for having it so that companies can actually like back you up if you are getting harassed online.

so yeah, we have a lot of fun. That's pretty much what we do.

AJ Nash: It's very cool. I remember the one you were just talking about that last bit, right? The law changing. So I

Lance James: The bungee one.

AJ Nash: Yeah. Yeah. You and I were talking about that. That was pretty cool. Thanks for sharing the writeup. If, if people don't know unit 221b and a lot of you probably don't, it's kind of a boutique org.

These guys are

Lance James: Also by design, we don't go around much. So

AJ Nash: absolutely. It's you guys are [00:04:00] amazing. You and Katie and the rest of the team over there. So I mean, I'm a huge fan. Obviously, we've been friends a long time. So, of course, I'm biased. Everybody knows that. But the work's the work. And I mean, what you guys do is pretty freaking awesome.

So, um, you know, thanks being on today, man. I appreciate you coming on here, both as a friend and as an expert. 

Lance James: Well, thanks for thanks for having me. I, you know, I always enjoy our conversations offline, so I'm, I'm looking forward to see how this goes online.

AJ Nash: Yeah, it's gonna be weird now. We got to try to keep it into a more of a frame. We can't just ramble forever, but, uh, but it's gonna be fun. At least we'll have a good time. Um, all right. So let's, in fact, let's, you know, kind of jump into this, right? Let's get into the heart of the discussion. So today's podcast is entitled stop the world.

I want to get off. Because security is this 24 7, 365 career, but life, it still happens, man. You know, bad guys don't get, don't take days off. So as a result, almost everyone I know struggles with that mythical work life balance. I'm notoriously terrible at this. I don't sleep very much. I don't eat very well.

You're on me all the time about hydration. Cause I don't do that much, never go to the gym. Hey, you'll be happy to know I went to the gym yesterday. I didn't do anything. Don't get too excited, but,

Lance James: Showing up, it's still like,

That's part of it, you

AJ Nash: That's right. I got a new gym membership and went and took the tour yesterday. And, uh, so I'm, I'm working on

Lance James: started Aikido like literally on Sunday and I'm going back today. So I'm, I told myself I'd [00:05:00] get into a martial art. I'm trying to do it. I mean, I'm not into it for the fighting side of it, but more the fun and just the activity, the cardio. And I finally kicked my butt and said, all right, I'm going.

AJ Nash: That's awesome, man. Yeah. I'm

Lance James: uh, you're the gym, I'm the Aikido, like, yay

AJ Nash: Well, there we go. 

Lance James: us out on the bat.

AJ Nash: we gotta keep working on it. Right. So, I mean, this whole work life balancing, none of us controls our lives, you know, and none of us controls life events, obviously. So you got pandemics, you got personal tragedies. Sometimes we just want the world to stop spinning so we can handle our personal life, but it just never does.

Right. So with also you got the increased pressures now on everyone because of economic factors. So we're seeing a rise, you know, use the term quiet quitting, you know, in my opinion, at least corporate leaders. Are sort of reframing what used to be considered meeting objectives, which was, you know, okay, you do all right You wouldn't get a massive rave, but you're okay Now that's somehow cheating the company out of employees full effort Well, listen in a lot of cases employees just don't have any more to give But uh, you know with all that is the foundation for today's discussion.

I want to open so there's format By the way, there's three questions every time we do this. I should be on this camera. There's three questions[00:06:00] um, so I will tell you, uh, three questions. There's sometimes some sub questions in there. I kind of remind people, don't worry, this is still question two. It's actually like two a or b, but, uh, so the first of those three questions is, you know, what are your thoughts on terms like, you know, work life balance and, and quiet quitting?

How do you, how do you land there?

Lance James: So, and I say with diversity as well, we don't have to talk about diversity, but I feel like these are like words that are purposely designed to guide people. If you give it a label, we start working on them. And unfortunately they, they exist because we need to like kind of work on them, right? So work life balance.

It's simply to me truly just balance. You know what I mean by that is, is that, um, a workplace like I own, I run a, you know, help run a workplace as a CEO, but I also have a personal life, right? And when I think about this work life perspective, I feel like it's like, if you just had balance, we wouldn't really have the work life as the term.

And it's, it's a tough one because the expectation you have from a job to say, well, you're supposed to support it, but I mean, they can't fix your life, right? You know what I mean? Meaning. And so where I start with it is like, as it's like, at least from the CEO perspective, I wake up and I have to look at it as my personal [00:07:00] responsibility to keep myself balanced because I've got 65 plus people expecting a check in every two weeks and a certain, uh, you know, dependency upon the leadership in the company.

Right. And so I wake up and when I think about work life balance, I just think about my balance. I go, all right, do I go to, for me, at least this is all varies for people's idea of balance. But for me, it's like, did I wake up and go to the gym? Did I meditate? Did I check in with my feelings and like myself and like how I'm doing?

What's the mood I'm in? Cause that's going to matter during the day. Um, you know, just different perspectives. I also do grateful exercises and things like this just because it kind of keeps you in a good mindset. I'm big on a proponent of personal mental health. I have therapy, you know, I'm I've been doing therapy for 10 years.

I'm not going to lie about it, and I'm very proud of it. Um, you know, and I also recognize that I'm a bit, you know, I'm in a lucky position to have this room. You know, we talked about, you just talked about COVID and how this can be hard because during COVID people who are working at restaurants are getting dragged in or told to do this anyways and risking their lives for a very crap set of pay.

Now, we're in the tech industry, and we are very, very, very knock on wood, Let's do whatever you want to call it. Lucky to have a situation we're in. Right? Um, so I want to speak to that as like, with that caveat that I'm aware that this doesn't this is not a one fit for all, but the work life balance.

I think when you can combine that now with this quiet. Quitting [00:08:00] concept. It's kind of like I feel like I've watched like during covid. What's really happened, at least in my opinion from observing is, you know, we all had this existential crisis, no matter how we acted mass no master. Let's just remove that because it's just all noise.

Any utopian existential crisis is going to make us act like that. So that's that's in the past, no matter what we did. We were scared. 

We 

AJ Nash: Everyone 

Lance James: frightened that we could, we could literally die. This could have been the plague,

right? Like we, we don't have control of that. And that was a, it was like a collective trauma that we all went through.

And are still kind of like, it's going to probably take about 10 years to even like heal from it and stuff. It has changed our lives. Right. And it stopped us and went, Hmm, am I living the life I want to be living? That's quiet. Quitting comes around. Right. I don't like the term quiet quitting because I'm against passive aggression.

And I really do believe that, like, your voice is your number one asset. And so I think it could be kind of something, especially the [00:09:00] way media might portray it. Right. Is that it could be encouraged where I just think ethically, if I hate my job, I must still do 100 percent for that day. And I'm going to try to communicate the best I could.

And then, obviously, if things go south and they just don't hear me, I just go find another job somewhere and I wait and put stuff, but I will do my job 100 percent because they're paying me. They're not changing their decision on how much they're paying me. So I believe in just at least doing that. The quiet quitting part kind of confuses me because I'm just like, who, nobody wins.

You quietly go to another job, don't speak up in that next job. That job doesn't understand you and what your needs are. So then it just keeps repeating and that job never gets to improve either. Cause they don't know they're doing something that is not working with you or, and maybe a few people

AJ Nash: right, but I got I got a piece that one So I think you're you're right, but also like this quiet quitting like this whole concept everything i've read about it is essentially People aren't performing to the level some companies, some organizations, some leadership want them to, [00:10:00] right? It's, it's the whole, you're not an A player.

You're not a superstar. You know, I need you to work extra hours. I need you to stay late and you do this and that. And if you're not, then suddenly you're just not, well, you're quitting. You're, you're, you're here and you're working, we're paying you, but you're not really giving us everything you've got.

Lance James: uh, 

AJ Nash: mean, they're, they're sort of reframing this idea that. Like I said, what used to be considered just meets objectives, right? You know, it used to be, you had like, you were a superstar or you just met objectives or you didn't meet objectives, you know, PIP or whatever. Right. And meets objectives was, you know, like the C player, right?

Uh, B, C, whatever. And you're good enough. Like we gave you goals, you hit the goals. You didn't exceed them. You're not special. You're probably not getting promoted, but you're here, which I will say, frankly, you need some of those people on the team. If

Lance James: Oh yeah.

AJ Nash: they're a superstar, everybody's fighting for advancement, you know, it's a cutthroat world.

I'm thrilled to have some people that are really good at what they do. They give you, like I said, they give you everything they got. Well, listen, they do their hours and they're out, whatever it is, they're 40 or whatever it comes out to be. And they, you know, they're, they're working to live, not living to work.

But I think we're seeing more of a push with this quiet quitting term of saying, no, no, no, that's not, that's not good enough. Like you, if you [00:11:00] only did 40 hours here and then you went surfing for the weekend, well, I mean, that's time that could have been spent with us. Or, you know, if you are a DJ at night, well, you obviously have more time and energy.

You should be putting more of that in us. You're on salary. It's not like it's an hourly job. But it's, there's this, there's this push to like get more and more out of people, right? Which, which totally, it goes against the whole work life balance concept, right? Uh, we want you to have balance, but not on our time.

And now we think all of your time is our time because you're on salary somehow, which I'm, I'm having a really hard time with. Um, and so that's, that's where I'm seeing it. I don't think we're talking as much about somebody who just isn't as happy and they quietly leave

Lance James: gotcha. Okay, cool. All Well, the good about that is on both sides, I guess I just don't like the term. You know

of a weird Yeah, 

AJ Nash: the term. It's yeah, it's bad. It's

Lance James: so the, so the challenge that I, I see here, and I guess I'm not exposed to because I'm running. And we don't allow you to work 40 hours unless it's actually agreed upon by the team and there was a plan for it and everything like that.

We were a little draconian about, like, making sure that you [00:12:00] rest. So, for instance, if you did end up working like Friday, we had something that came up and we needed get a report. And most of us were up till two this week. These people should be taking a day off. Right. And that's kind of where it's at.

AJ Nash: Well, that's cause that's your commitment to balance. You believe in it internally. Obviously you just spoke about it.

And

you it's 

Lance James: is obviously the like, I want to do something different. And so it's obviously not the normal, the norm right now. Right. I hope someday it will be modeled as a norm because will tell you, I get, I get so much more out of people, not driving them to their deaths, but actually like, you know, I'm result oriented.

So I don't really care about how many hours you spend. I care about the result. Sometimes It means that we might have to do a Friday till two in the morning because something happened. Right? And we all agreed on that. Right? And that that's it. But then, you know, we always try to look at like, okay, this person is about to burn out if they keep going that route.

So let's let give them cover fire and get them to rest and especially like IR, as you know, IR can. [00:13:00] Incident response can be tough, right, and it can be like that's why people pay a lot more for it because you're asking people to Sacrifice their brains on a weekend, right?

AJ Nash: Yeah. It's

Lance James: Firefighting right and sometimes that happens, right?

And so like yeah, like the challenge I have is I don't think there's a salary in the world That could justify someone to keep going. I want more and more and more and more and more from you Um, I mean, what did they talk about? Like, the idea of, like, even less than 40 hour weeks was a discussion during covid as well.

Like, where, you know, uh, and again, I haven't tried those out. I have had the half day Fridays and the previous job, and they seem to be pretty awesome. Um, and then I even read a study that if you're over 40, it's actually better for anybody above 40 to work 3 days because it's more of a. We just like as you get older, your style, you have to work more smart.

You don't have to is like hard, right? It's like it's different. And our world require our world requires brain, right? So this isn't like, um,

AJ Nash: a [00:14:00] factory, no offense to anybody there, but we're not cranking things out. If this isn't always a numbers game, I mean, I think you, you nailed it. It's it's output is what matters. Right. And, and a lot of what we do in this industry is, you know, deep thought is analysis is problem solving is where you need a sharp brain

Lance James: Yeah. it requires marathon pace, not like a, ironically in engineering called them sprints, but it's still a marathon pace. Like the engineers know when to stop that day, whether it's engineers or IR, you know, and again, but like the idea is, is that you should build in this balance that respects it.

Because I'm going to tell you, if there comes a day where you've got a company like that, that's like pushing and pushing and pushing, even if they pay more, someone will go to a place like our place. That you know, we pay pretty well, but like, just say it was like big company to small company and go, Oh, we can give you this.

They're going to take that over any, the fact that they feel they belong and are heard and understood and get their weekends and everything like this. So when I, for instance, do [00:15:00] a contract for me as an executive, and this is like, I coach a lot of executives, like behind the scenes during COVID, especially, uh, just as a free part of my time.

But like, I would say, Hey. You know what? You know, when you go in your new job, you can put in your contract what your boundaries are, right? You actually can do that. I do that at every job I have. By the way, Saturday and Sunday are religious. I'm Jewish on Saturday and I'm Christian Sunday. know what?

Last company didn't bother me at all. 

I'm neither of the point being is, is that like, like the minute I put that out, there's another business. But I added religion and guess what? Five years last job, never got a call on the weekend. 

Right? And we still 

succeeded. 

AJ Nash: And that's good point about being able to set boundaries. And again, you and I both agree there's privilege to some of the discussion. We know that, right? isn't, 

Lance James: yeah. I want to be very clear that obviously this is tech, this is this, but if you're in tech, these advice, this advice will likely fly in most cases. Unless kind of starting out, but you still boundaries still count,

AJ Nash: totally, but the key thing here is, I mean, to me, at least you mentioned like you're a leader. You, you founded a company, you have [00:16:00] people that, you know, look to you, to leadership, and I think it's about. Having a leader who sets this, the example in the stage and the expectation, this isn't, these aren't catchphrases.

You, this, you, you live this, you believe this, you know, Hey, you know, I'm, I'm like you in that, you know, yeah, I've, I've led Intel teams and sometimes it's like, man, I need you to come in. I need you to work Saturday and you're gonna work all night. You might even work all day Sunday. It might be a lot, but I've.

Literally told people do not come in. I'm like, I will have your computer deactivated for a couple days 

If to 

Lance James: I've done 

AJ Nash: done that to folks can ask people on my team That'll my old team that'll chuckle now because I've said if you if I keep seeing you on slack I'm gonna tell it to shut you off for a couple days You need the time off and I think it's it's that whole thing is quality over quantity and output, right?

If people burn themselves out, especially in these high Intense thinking jobs. They're going to make more mistakes. They're going to do lousier work. They're going to call in more things. It's going to get lazier and slower and softer and weaker because they're just worn out. Whereas if you give them just a couple days off what they come back and do could be amazing and done [00:17:00] quickly.

And I'm Admittedly, I'm somebody who is a bit of a procrastinator and I'm a burst worker and you give me a project with a two week deadline, you know, I'm not the guy you want to ask for updates four days in the chances are I haven't even looked at the project yet because I've still got 10 days and I got seven other projects I'm working on, but it'll all get there.

Right. And, and I, and I find the time for balance and, you know, for me, that was one of the things with COVID. And it's been interesting to see and I think that's now we're seeing, you know, the push to put you back in the offices and some people dealt with this differently. Right? Listen, I find time every day.

I work. I don't know how many hours a week I work. I'm not gonna lie. And somebody can go check my computer now and find out. I'm sure. Um, and I hope they don't. But you know, if you go through and look at all the patterns you might find, geez, on Tuesday, this guy for four hours just disappeared. Yeah, I did.

You know what? I didn't have anything urgent that day. I probably needed a mental break. So I took the dog for a walk or

Lance James: took, I a mental break all day yesterday. I literally because we had a situation that I won't go into that. Like I said, that Friday document, all this stuff to yesterday was my day off. It was like, I didn't really get a full weekend. I want my two days. And so we moved a [00:18:00] couple of people literally took off including me and we rotate and that's what happened.

So, and I was it, I was like, I am going to be lazy today. I don't care. am literally going to act like it's Saturday or Sunday.

AJ Nash: Yeah. And it'll work. But of course it takes, I mean, first of all, it takes leadership that believes in this and it takes trust, you know, trust in, in your ability, first of all, to hire people. I think the biggest challenge I see is folks, you know, there isn't enough trust necessarily in the workforces.

And a lot of times, listen, some people earn distrust. That happens. But I think a lot of times it's that people don't trust their own hiring processes. Like I've always said to somebody, if you're micromanaging people, it's, it's a reflection on you in so many ways. You know, one of them is why did you hire them if you don't trust them?

Well, you know, hired him and you know, whatever. Well, it's on you then like do your research. 

Lance James: In one of core values, trust begets trust is how we try to because like, look, I, it's, it's like no different than if I'm in a relationship, right? Obviously, I have a wife or whatever. the reality is, is that I can't walk into that relationship and expect to be successful if I don't trust her at the start.

If I, you know, the number one reason people cheat on each other. [00:19:00] It's because they actually think they're cheating on the other that insecurity

literally breeds the answer. Yes. And so then they go screw it.

Right. You 

AJ Nash: they go make a bad choice and they 

Lance James: take back an analogy back into work environments. The same thing.

If you think, you know, there was a call I got. It's probably a year and a half ago, but like, someone's like, Oh, they've got the keys to our admin. We need to figure out this and that. And Oh my gosh. And like, they just hit me up. I said, why don't you just give them a severance package three months and get the 

from them they will go away and be happy because they have three months to get a job and will happily. I said, you guys are like overthinking ready to go on the attack. I said, trust begets trust. You know, this is why people act that way because you're assuming they will. You know, like I obviously not perfect, know, I've said, we've had some crazy once in a while, but like, you know, we, you know, but outside of that, the majority, you got to remember that it's like that 80 20 thing you're 80%.

If you start trusting everybody 80 percent of that time, you're going to like, have a good time.

AJ Nash: Yep. I totally agree. And I've had those conversations. It's funny you mention that. I've had conversations. I've seen companies that are on the [00:20:00] path of, you know, possible legal, etc. And I'm like, why don't you just give them a better severance package? Like, find out what the root cause is. And again, it doesn't work for everybody in every situation.

But a lot of times the root cause is your issue with that. And it's much easier than all the stress and the frustration and the cost of the other path that you're heading down, you know, it's, I'm not a CEO. So there's a lot of factors in those discussions that I'm not involved in. There's a lot of things I don't understand, I'm sure, but I'm, you know, I've been around forever now I'm old 

Lance James: The number. 

AJ Nash: to that, yeah, taking good care of people.

I think mostly it works. I've been chastised before. I've been known to be for being too trusting. You know, I, I've had, I've had issues where people are like, well, you got bit because you did this thing. And I, I still generally act the same way. When I came into my last new team, you know, I said right away, I'm, I'm going to trust all of you with my life.

Essentially. Like you own my career, not the other way around. I don't have time. To try to figure out if I should or shouldn't trust people. I you're all experts. You have great resumes. You were hired for good reason. You have all my trust and faith. Let's go do good things. and we'll figure it out from there.

I've always told my team, uh, whatever team I [00:21:00] have, you know, the three things are, you know, if it isn't illegal, isn't immoral, unethical, it isn't against a written company policy and written is a really important word in that sentence. Go do it. Don't ask my permission. Go do it. I trust you and I own all the risk and the responsibility for it.

If it's, if it's. Outside of those boundaries, you're on your own. I'm not going to jail for But everything else is on me and just go do things. And I've also found, like you said, trust begets trust. You know, oftentimes, obviously when a new leader comes in, people don't, you know, people are nervous.

Who's this person? What are they going to be like, etc. And I have those conversations and I've had to actually reiterate them a couple times because people don't believe you at first or because I'm notorious. I talk a lot. I tell people I know that. I said, so statistically, I'm going to say more stupid things.

Um, if I do. That's just how it works. If I'm in a meeting and I, if I said, if I hurt your feelings or I offended you in any way,

Lance James: Let me 

AJ Nash: wait. 

Lance James: Just let me 

AJ Nash: call me out in front of the group. You have my permission. There are no repercussions. 

Lance James: don't that, but then they get all shocked when it actually And holy crap, I remember this in my last job. And the guy was like, hey, you remember when you said it? I said, yep, and I'm holding to [00:22:00] it. And like the dude was relieved on the one on one because he's like, holy crap.

Like, I'm like, yeah, like I, I know it's hard to believe because everybody wants to say that. But I, I, I literally wake up going, if I'm doing a performance for you, I'm like, skip what I'm good at, I'm aware of it, tell me what I need to work on. I am always looking forward to the areas that I can improve, 

and, and so... When you have that kind of perspective and which a lot of people in cybersecurity, I think do like minus the ego, right? The trick is got to get that ego, like to be an advisor, but not necessarily in your way. Right. And that takes growth and time and blah, blah, blah.

We all have it. We all went through it. but essentially it's really just always being a beginner, always trying to learn, trying to like, as a leader, I'm not going to solve this problem. I'm not going to solve every like, it's like people don't understand why leadership actually probably pays very well, but it's the mental mindfulness and exercise in the head you have to do.

You got to control your emotions, but yet also lend them when they're necessary or like you have to see it in the right thing. It's, it's like, it's the challenge, right? But honestly, if you like, [00:23:00] we go back to you working on your own personal responsibility, your own things, your balance when you do that.

What will happen is you'll actually, if you are balanced them, you're in the moment. you will make the right decisions in most cases. And when you don't, you quickly say, well, that was a bad call. Let me, you know, like, you know, blah, and or apologize or whatever it takes. But you'll be able to, like, kind of pretty much flow more than you would not because you're trusting.

You're having, like, trust is faith, right? The reality is it's faith, you know, and so you got to just have faith in that the floor is going to still hold while you're walking around, and then also that the people are going to do their thing, and I like that you said, if it isn't illegal this and that.

in the long run, the number one thing humans want in this world, work or outside of work, is to be understood.

And the more we actually do that, and try to understand every single person as we can, the best we can in the moment, if we're listening to them, if they feel listened, all this stuff, 

the power you get out of like, Them enjoying their work, getting in the flow, not having the imposter syndrome for at least a little bit.

Not everybody. Obviously, everybody's got their [00:24:00] different stages, but you, you, you, you definitely up the up the statistical percentage that they're going to find themselves and figure out that flow for themselves,

Providing that that runway, you

AJ Nash: Yeah, I mean, it takes guts. You gotta be, you gotta have, you gotta be a bit of a risk taker in this form of leadership, right? So, and I have been burned. I've trusted the wrong people and it happens sometimes, but I've also said I'm still gonna keep doing this because overall,

Lance James: numbers. that. It's the net. It's always positive. I,

I, 

AJ Nash: worked with, like I get out of their way. They do amazing things. Yeah. The first time I, you know, I tell people to call me on, I know something had happened and somebody told me about afterwards. I was like, Oh, my God, I had no idea I had that impact, but they didn't call me out in front of the group.

So I sent an email and I did not call them out. I was going to turn it around, but I said, it's to my attention, you know, that I said something thoughtlessly. And so I gave it, you know, a full mea culpa. And, you know, somebody fall back like, I can't believe you did that. So I told you I would like if you don't call me out in front of the group, I'll call me out in front of the group because it's not right that I should offend somebody in front of a group and then privately you get an apology.

Lance James: well, yeah, 

AJ Nash: to fix it. So, you know, I wanted to get [00:25:00] on that. That's about personal integrity, responsibility. Everybody's held accountable. That includes me. Um, and, you know, let's move on. And once you do a couple nights, people like, oh, I get it. And of course, then somebody calls me an asshole in a meeting and I'm like, aha, you get it.

That's what I said. I was being an asshole. Thank you. Exactly. Thank you. You were right. I didn't realize what I said. Absolutely. You deserve an apology for that. That is not what I meant to say. And yes, I was being an asshole. Let's move on from that. 

Lance James: As yeah. 

AJ Nash: cool. I can call the boss an asshole.

I'm like, well, don't do it all the time, please. But you know, if I've earned it, I've earned it. 

Lance James: Yeah, yeah, you know, Alison, of

uh, going to detail later, but like Allison's one of the like things is that we have such a sometimes I'll be a hardhead, right for a half a second or like, sometimes it might even take up to 30 minutes. And Alice is trying to tell me because I might have a preview experience.

It's blocking me from listening. But she's like, the one thing I always appreciate your Lance is you try to like, at the end of it, you do listen. And there was a thing we were getting into a debate and it's like, I at first was pushed off and it's because of my previous job, I was kind of defensive the engineering team.

It was an automatic mode. And then when I thought about it, I was like, Oh, you know what? You're actually right. And then I went to the engineering team said, by the [00:26:00] way. In that other meeting, Allison, I know I kind of shut you down, like, I was coming from a perspective of being defensive for the engineering team, but you actually have a really good point here, and I just called it out in our engineering, like, slack or whatever, and I get a, like, a comment, like, from one of our engineers, like, I've never seen a boss that does, like, actually owns that right there, and I said, well, that's how we learn accountability across the board.

thing. If I'm doing that, hopefully you guys will do the same and you won't be so afraid of like all the conflicts and the lack of trans, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll go, well, 

right. And the example. You got to be the example. And 

that's way it 

Even if I don't I want to swallow it internally, it doesn't matter because my leader hat's on.

And that's more important for the people I serve every single day than it is my ego or how I might feel about it, you

AJ Nash: Yeah. And I mean, and it closes out that whole first topic we were just having, which is, you know, you want people not to quiet quit. You want people to be committed and involved. Well, if they think you care about them, you care about them, you know, work, like true work life balance. You care about them being healthy and safe.

You care about their opinions. You, you are hold yourself as accountable as you would hold 

them. 

Lance James: more than they 

AJ Nash: [00:27:00] environment. They know that's right. Then, then they'll give you what they have. And that doesn't mean somebody has to give you 80 hours a week. That's

Lance James: No, actually, I 

think so 

much with 40.

AJ Nash: A hundred hundred let's dig into the tough stuff, right? This is, I mean, this is kind of the big one. So. As you know, and probably everybody listening does at this point, you know, I've been working my way through grief, you know, I had a girlfriend suddenly die earlier this year, I mean, it was, you know, it was unexpected, right?

I left town to go speak. She was fine. By the time I came back, she was very much not fine. And within 24 hours, she was gone. And so I wasn't prepared for Any of that, frankly, I mean, who is, and I had to immediately manage a whole lot of things that are massively impactful. And like I said, I wasn't prepared for, you know, all the, the arrangements have to be made, right?

There wasn't a will involved, you know, you know, there's family to work through. There's, in this case, geography was part of the issue. So lots of things, right? And so, like a lot of us, you know, who are problem solvers, whether you're Intel, whether you're IR or whatever, you know, you put on the operational hat, okay, I'm gonna start handling these things, the logistics, and you start checking boxes, this has to happen, and this has to happen, and this has, and you start knocking out a whole bunch of [00:28:00] things, right?

Okay. Thank you. And I hadn't really connected. With the loss, to be honest, I thought I had, I don't know. Okay. But 

Lance James: Well, you and I behind the 

AJ Nash: with it a 

Lance James: talked about that a little

AJ Nash: hundred percent. Right? So, Emily dies on a Saturday, right? I I'm out of town. I come back Thursday and Friday. She ends up in the hospital on Saturday. She's gone.

I actually thought I was going to go to work on Monday. Like I did all logistics, everything over the weekend. And like I showed up Monday morning on my computer and by the way, hadn't totally made it work, what happened? Even Monday morning, I get on my first meeting last like five minutes and it just all.

Hit and I was like, yeah, that's not gonna happen. So we're not, we're not doing this meeting. So, uh, and then, you know, that starts a path right now before I go too, too far down my own path to make sure this is a conversation instead of me just chatting alone about my life. I know you've had to manage tragedy too and, you know, obviously we've talked about this offline, you know, uh, it was, you know, your situation and you know, I appreciate your guidance and your help as well for mine.

So let's clue the audience in on where we both are and we can talk through so you know, if you're okay with it, you know, can you talk a little bit about what happened? You know [00:29:00] how you worked through it, you know, while still having a career in security.

Lance James: Sure. Um, so in 2018, my son passed away in a drowning accident. Uh, mine's a very complicated situation because I also wasn't allowed to see my children for, at that time, eight years and then it was like 10 total due to a very tumultuous divorce. I'm not here to diss on that side of it, but it was just two sides of it and California law.

Um, and if anybody's familiar with that, it's a pain in the butt. So. Um, in that it was a big shocker to me because my biggest fear was also them. I knew they were not having proper structure parenting, this and that, and I was fighting in the courts and all this stuff. But, you know, because of the complicated matter, and unfortunately judges don't know you, right?

It just kind of gets passed through, passed through, passed through, passed through, right? Um, and so, you know, July 4th. I get a call from a friend of mine that he's passed away and they did the best they could in 10 hours in the emergency room and blah, blah, blah. Medevac from, from Arizona to Vegas. All this because it's on a, uh, a bullhead.

So it was on the [00:30:00] coroner's post. Um, and it broke me. I'm going to just be straight out honest. Really just broke me in that moment. I could, I, there is, there's some noises that I've never made in my life, and they came out of me that moment. Right? And, um, there's a reason I also didn't say sorry about Emily, because we've already, one, talked about it, two, have you ever noticed that saying, everybody who's saying sorry gets kind of weird?

AJ Nash: Yeah. It's, it's, it is a weird thing, you know? And I've, and I've had, you know, my, I've had some of this, you know, my mother died when I was 12 and, you know, we can go through all sorts of stories. So I, and I remember then like, I know people mean well, right. And, you

Lance James: Yeah. But it's just 

like, there's no 

AJ Nash: thank you. There are no words, right. Sorry. It's just only, the only one we have available, but now you and I've talked, listen, everybody at this point, like, yeah, the sorry's I'm good. At that, and we can go through my journey, but no, you and I have clearly talked. I mean, I just, I didn't say, you know, sorry about your, your

Lance James: Yeah, exactly. So we get it, 

right? so that get it part, I'm going to get to in a get it, to get to in a later, but I want to actually point that out at some point, but what I did to get through this was I took an immediate 90 day break. I [00:31:00] tried to do 60 come back, even try it for a day. And I'm like, Oh, nope, I'm not there.

So I did 90. And I was very, this is again, very, you know, lucky because the company I was working at was very, Non, they weren't toxic. They were very considerate. They like understood. They were like, take all the time you need. They even covered me at my, um, because I had child support and pretty hefty child support.

They covered my flights over to the funeral. They like, really were supportive, right? Um, and so I got really lucky there. And I know that not everybody's situation will have that, right? But it, like, I couldn't move for a good 30 days. So I started getting, and I believe everybody needs kind of a box after a tragedy.

Tragedies will kick your butt, right? You know, they're just to shift you. And some people's like religion, Christianity, Judaism, whatever it is, Islam, blah, Mine was Buddhism, right? And the reason why mine was Buddhism is because it's a book that says be good, but it actually has instructions.

AJ Nash: We could use some of those and they're, they're useful ones as I understand, like you can actually do things with

Lance James: Yeah, yeah. And so [00:32:00] Zen, Zen Buddhism was like, I couldn't move and I'm like, well, I've got this book sitting on my shelf called Beginner's Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. I'm like, I better sit and put it to work because I can't do anything like, but sit. And since I'm sitting, I better like, why not learn meditation?

And in my world at that time was also a way I could talk to my son because we had some I only saw him last time at eight and he kind of hated me based on the narrative. So this was kind of like a closure, like complicated closure piece. Um, you know, and so I had to just kind of like, I, I did lean hella into it.

And so like, if I had 90 days, I decided to lean into pain cause my entire life, I'm going to be totally honest as an extrovert, I've always avoided my pain. So I always was like out there in the world and this and that. And this is the first time. forced me to be super silent, super quiet. And I'm like, Oh shoot.

This is a, this is a first for Lance. So I'm like, I better like. Welcome this weird silver lining while I'm dealing with it, right? And I shared, of course, some of my, my journeys along the way, too, because I've learned [00:33:00] something about suffering later on is that I'm like, Oh, this can actually be used to relate and help someone shortcut something in their life if it happens to them.

And I figured if you share it, it's also was kind of like, you know, cathartic for me. But like I wrote music, I shared my experiences when I could, and I like, you know, because I was thinking a lot. You know, but I was finally getting to know who the heck I was. I've, I've spent most of my life with my own long distance, like, you know, if you're kept from your kids, imagine how much pain that might be. You know what I mean? So, and this happens, this is that catalyst of like, everything just broke. Uh, I was even angrier at mom and blah blah, like their, their mom and everything, of course, you know, all this stuff. And so then 90 days comes, right, and I got into a state of like 3 days meditation, like very much into my, like I just went to town about like having my own space and like weird thing is once you start like experiencing your own space, you're going to fight tooth and nail to keep that.

A lot of times what happens is we don't [00:34:00] recognize until a tragedy hits us about our own space because the world pulls on us. then you kind of like we're like, Oh, I got that so I'm going to protect my piece right they say on memes and crap. Um, so. So I had to work and they actually were dealing with this is the previous job was dealing with a reduction in force and I when I got back, I joked him.

I said, what do you guys 

AJ Nash: Brutal. 

Lance James: I just leave for 90 days. Come on, right? You know, I'm just

with but I had a very different energy. Like my energy was lower. I was quiet, like I could listen. It was kind of interesting. It's because I didn't really want to talk. It took a lot of energy for me to talk.

Look, it took a lot of energy for me to take a one step, two step, three step. It was, I wore light clothes when I got back. I literally got like Buddha's outfits and like whatever was I haven't stopped wearing Chinese Kung Fu shoes from since he died because literally, I love like the light. Close like I really do.

So, um, because when you're grieving, it's like your body's filled with rocks and it's very, very heavy. Right? [00:35:00] And so when I came back, they were like, we want you to take over the VP of engineering from I was already the chief scientist just for a record. But I mean, also kind of like, you know, and I said, why?

And they said, honestly, the way you've actually handled your grieving is with grace. And also when you were gone, and this goes back to our first subject, when you were gone, your two teams that you ran were the most successful in this company, even when you weren't here.

AJ Nash: Nice. a 

on leadership right

Lance James: That is, that is exactly the ultimate and I used to have a problem with that like insecurity wise, but that when this happened, you just got to go with it.

And I said, Hey, team leads take the conch. I'll be back in 90. Right? So, um, so I, but here's the thing. I also use grieving to my advantage. It was the first time I learned about like, you could really say no. To things, right? It's where you can learn the power of knowing the boundaries, right? Where I actually had an opportunity to reset everything just like I did internally in my meditation and whatever I did over there.

I also had now a way to assert myself. You're not going to tell a dude that's like [00:36:00] already have energy and like this and that. We want you to do all these crazy things. What I said is, well, you're going to do it my way if I say yes to this. Because the last three years of the reason why you got here and no offense to the company, but was repeated patterns that we got stuck in.

So I said, I have a new way of doing this. I have a different set of energy and there's gonna be some things that changed. So I had to move all important meetings to Mondays, no Tuesday meetings, period. Um, that ended up becoming company wide after a while. It's like I had a 40 person engineering team. I said, I need a coach.

I don't know anything about like dealing with teams bigger than like X, Y, X, right? I deputized obviously my directors and like, really relied on them, things like that. Um, but I, I, I made them have a minute like they had a break room, but I made them put a meditation mat in there and respect that I was going to meditate three, three times a day.

And I could classify it as religion if they want. Um, but it was no argument. So, um, you know, just like Islams pray five, right? You know, so, so, like, so, um, And I basically started, doing this thing called a focus for because I looked at the JIRA and I'm like 32 projects, 40 developers. That's why you guys are not getting what you want out.

So I [00:37:00] pretty much kick product out of standups. I'm like, there's no problem. There's no, there's no problem. You're solving in a standup. It's literally for the engineers. And I, I got in a big, you know, because I came up with this focus for without asking.

AJ Nash: You didn't even want them to be there to listen to the engineers, even if they weren't allowed to speak, just to hear what was there?

Lance James: They already were always so busy in every meeting that they never got anything done as a product went and read a book on what is the role of product and what's the role of engineering because I, I've never been a VP of engineering before, so I had no idea. So I started reading books on organized psychology, all the stuff because it's like the reality is I was gonna have a team that some people I'm not gonna be able to remember their names.

I was good. I was like small teams because it could be more personal and this and that. But then I started reading these books and I realized, well, Actually, one on ones will also reflect the entire pattern of the group. You'll see these patterns across each one on one that you'll hear about, too. They'll all have the same pattern, right?

So I started just kind of like thinking slowly, like this and that, like just kind of like, you know, spending a couple months just listening and like really hearing. I had a STFU in my notebook, because I'm also a talker, but [00:38:00] because I was also in a different state, I had to shut the eff up Lance, shut up Lance, in my notebook.

And I wouldn't take my cell phone or my laptops in there. And we wouldn't allow cell phones or laptops unless you were literally on an emergency. And if that was the case, I was keeping you out of the meeting. And

AJ Nash: Yep.

Lance James: so essentially I just reset all these rules. I made them go back to their vision and mission, stop having client codependency, step back.

And I knew it was, I could do this because I was in a grieving thing and they needed me. And also they're not going to say no. Because they know I have to operate a certain way if they want me to succeed, right? and so I was aware of the perception and what necessary. Um, but then when we talk about this is I got product, I did this focus for where it's like we're going to only focus on four things.

And if you're done with your thing, your, your, your team will start coming in and work on the third one up. Second one up, welcome. We got like three in. I knew it was going to be, you always shoot for a little bit over, right? But it's like a diet plan. Right. Mathematically speaking, we could do four projects.

It's about it. Right. Um, and I said, focus forward and it upset the product team and got them in a room with me. And they're like, and I said, well, you guys aren't actually doing anything. You're sitting in standups and complaining that there's like so much to do. And I said, but what are you actually doing?

I said, there's not a single requirement for everything you're asking for. And then finally, the leader of the product team's like, what do you want from us? I said, get in war rooms. And if there's a product requirement, we'll do it. Otherwise we're going to continue doing maintenance until then. And that's it.

Like I said, cause we need the house. Well, or the what? You know, we'll tell you the how, right? And one of the other challenges with the company was that the engineers didn't have a voice due to certain things that happened prior that I was, I wasn't involved in that just, I don't know, some people talked too much and it actually hurt the team because you know, as engineers, like, stereotypically speaking, a lot of them will take about 60 seconds before they speak, which is why I had the STFU Lance in there because I knew Purposely, I needed to, like, allow them to have a space to speak, right?

Um, and their previous leaders talked a lot, you know what I mean? And so, I just, for some reason, in this case, I felt like I did it all, like, pretty well. I even had a panic attack in front of them once, and that was, like, I think a month into this. And I was really honest about it. I said, sorry, I like some people don't know.

I lost some like a couple months ago, three months ago or whatever. And I'm like, sometimes I'm just going to try to excuse myself for this or that if something hits me. Um, you know, but, uh, you know, but I was honest about it because look, we're human happens, you know, and, uh. And it's like, if I try to be stronger, it's only going to break me more, right?

And, uh, and so it's kind of like, I had to figure out how to go with the flow of energy I had, the, the, the softer walk, the, this and that. And, uh, actually, and I, then in a year, I knew that the kind of the, the clocks ticked for me, cause I knew I was going to also have to make more time for grieving, cause this going to be big project.

So in a year when I felt like they were all ready, I quit and like handed it off to someone who was much more detailed than I am. I think they really want to do that kind of job. I actually didn't, I never saw myself as like this. You know, a CTO slash of engineer. I love working with people, but there are people that understand software development and that like whole like detail stuff a lot better than I do.

My job was really to get their voice back to get like things so that they actually had room and that they could speak and like really like push back at all the leaders to feel that they could push back and get like more of a healthy 

environment product and 

engineering 

AJ Nash: change the 

culture basically. Yeah. So I think it's interesting. Uh, so your journey, uh, you were able to take 90 days, which again, You know, good on good on you. Good on the company. I was

leaving right? I mean, company, you know, working for people that, you know, and with people that are supportive is massive, right?

And when you came back, you actually leveraged, you know, some of the perceptions, you know, you're still a father in grief, of course, but also also some of the time you'd spent to get re centered and to get more connected and, uh, to,

Lance James: Yeah, I got time to [00:39:00] study.

AJ Nash: Exactly. And leverage that into a change. So conversely, and sort of the discussion here about, you I think both of us would probably agree.

There's no right or wrong answer necessarily, but. People do things differently. Right. And so I'm obviously earlier in my journey. I mean, this is years from now. And so you have, a bigger perspective, right? And I'm pretty early, you know, everything for me, I was just in March and it's September now.

So, um, but at the same time, while going back, Monday was clearly foolish and wasn't going to happen. Um, I was only gone a couple of weeks, um, to be clear, like you, one thing we have in common, my company was great. Uh, I couldn't be more thankful, you know, it had nothing to do with bereavement policy, which, you know, most companies have like three

Lance James: I think you need to stay busy. I know 

how you are, 

AJ Nash: and, but three days is not enough for anybody, of course.

 so, but the company was fantastic. I was overwhelmed with support. You know, I, in my case, so I mentioned, you know, I went to that meeting Monday morning. I was like, oh, this is, you know, then it all hit me. And I had not. So I got out the meeting. I didn't even tell anybody in the company. My first thought, which is odd, but I got on linkedin actually and wrote and I know you saw this.

I'm [00:40:00] And 

Lance James: reached out. I was like, I didn't

AJ Nash: exactly. Yeah. So it wasn't planned. It wasn't contrived or anything, but it just, I was feeling something. I not only wanted to share what was going on with me, but I wanted to share her. What I thought was immediately in a learning experience for others. You know, I had, again, I'd been out of town when all this started and, you know, consistently for my entire, our entire relationship, my entire career, which had a lot of travel in it, you know, M insisted on, on us talking every night and wanted to check on me and make sure I was okay, really.

and I was like, I'm always okay. Don't worry about it. And it didn't really occur to me. Are you okay? Like you, you just assume home is home, like everybody's gonna be fine. Right? and so, I took a moment, I started kind of writing something out and you know, I had, you know, I mentioned obviously what had happened, et cetera.

The next thing I, you know, somebody from work pings me and is like, you know, all the services start and everything, because I hadn't even bothered to tell work yet that, that this had happened. so of course then I said, yes, I'm, uh, I slacked my boss after the LinkedIn note, the next thing was slacking my boss.

I said, listen, I'm not. I'm not working today and I don't know when I'm working. This has just happened. And I actually, I shared the LinkedIn post internal, like with him. I was like, I can't write it twice. [00:41:00] Here's what happened. And so I was just sharing, here's the message, here's what's going on. And I was very lucky.

You know, the company was great. Obviously the outpouring of support from people who, you know, in the network, et cetera, you know, it was fantastic and really overwhelming. People were just unbelievable, uh, in their love and support. And then so for me, it was like, all right, now what am I going to do? Cause I don't know how long I'll be away or what I'm going to do.

And yeah, I wasn't going very long. I was scheduled to do some speaking events. And you know, the company's like, listen, we can pull you out of these. And I said, please don't like, I need to go do these things again. COVID we're already segregated. I work at home and you know, nowhere near anybody else. I was like being alone.

I can only do so much that I had a few days. I cried an absolute ton, but you can only cry with the dog next to you for so long. And you're like, all right, I got to get out. I

Lance James: Yep, everybody process it differently. And that's the thing that my version of it is. It shouldn't be your version of it.

AJ Nash: exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so I remember my next thing was to go to Toronto. So, you know, this happened.

I was actually in Denver for speaking for FSISAC in Denver when all this unfolded. My next event was in Toronto also for FSISAC. So it was a lot of the same people who now knew what had happened in between, right? [00:42:00] And, uh, but I, you know, I said, listen, this is where, this is where my home is. This is where my comfort level is.

This is my support system. And, you know, frankly, I'm, was a big supporter of me doing these things. And, you know, it also still a way to honor her as I was going forward. And so, so yeah, I was only gone. I don't know if it was. Three weeks total. I doubt it was probably a couple weeks and, and I have been busy, but for anybody listening and wondering, including you, um, I'm not disconnected from what's going on.

I'm still processing it and managing it and you know,

Lance James: Five years me and I'm still processing. I'm just starting to get outside and do stuff. That's why I was like telling you, I just started Aikido. I'm trying to get out. Like I said, it can take a long time and it's like a waves, you

AJ Nash: Totally, totally. And part of the reason I, I got this gym membership, I mean, obviously I could stand to be in better shape, but the truth is part is I got is because they do yoga and, and meditation and I'm looking for, for outlets as well, you know, but I'm also finding myself already. Uh, with some learnings out of this, you know, again, connecting with yourself, like you said, what really matters, what's really important when something shocking like that happens, you're able to [00:43:00] go.

All right. All this is fleeting. You know, we all know that when we talk about it, but it hits you again. You're like, yeah, all this really is fleeting. What really matters and starting to lean in on things that do matter, right? Like you did, you know, coming back and saying, listen, it's gonna be on my terms.

Now, of course, the flip side is because of the way I like to work. And I'm always known for it. I'm actually still doing the opposite. I said yes to everything. I haven't gotten quite to the power no piece. I got to work on that. I say yes to everything and let future AJ figure it out. And that, that poor son of a bitch has a tough life usually.

Lance James: So 

AJ Nash: past 

Lance James: it's all about how people cope, right? Like it's like, you know, and Carl Young said it best that when a big tragedy happens, so ego death tends to occur, it doesn't mean your ego is gone. Let me explain something from a psychological perspective, just for the audience ego is there to protect the body.

Right? Right? It's you fall out of a chair. Your ego is going to generalize possibly and you are afraid of chairs or you're afraid to swim if you had a friend who, you know, something similar where you almost had drowning accident. I can't swim. That's another thing I haven't told most people. I just realized I told my wife like last year and didn't tell her at all.

And I let it slip. And I'm like, I didn't realize I didn't tell her, but I think I'm like, then I checked my best friends. I'm like, Oh, wait, did I ever tell you I can't swim? My wife was so ticked. She was like, you know, I wouldn't have been pushing your ass about going in the water entire time. Like if I knew that, you know, so okay, so, but we all have our coping mechanisms, And there's an ego death that is occurring, right, currently for you, actually, even if you don't recognize it fully yet. It hit me, like, two years, like, with COVID, 2018, 2020 is when I realized it started. Because there's a processing, right? There's seven or five stages. I go with five for just more efficiency.

But you know, you can go with the seven like. It's like, you know, tear letting, you know, you know, obviously anger, grief, you know, like law, uh, there's like shock and all these different

things. Right. I can't remember all of this. So denial and and,

and depression and,

acceptance and sevens and.

the ego death kind of like ripped. It ripped my entire world apart. And I'm going to be totally honest. People won't recognize this because obviously you know me at conferences.

It's a little different, right? I became a better husband over it. I became a better father over it. I became better to myself. And it took a couple of years to really kind of lay out that groundwork. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But if you do survive the suffering, right, and you lean into it, you listen to it, whether even, you don't have to lean into it, like, let's go.

I'm an intense dude that way. I'd be like, let's do this now. Right. You're going to be like, let me go work and blah, blah, blah. But it's going to like, it's going to come no matter what for you. Like, and it's the same, it comes for everybody that way. If you survive it. You, you end up like almost like this new skin, like a shedding of a skin and it becomes like a kind of a rebirth because this ego is now an advisor, not necessarily operating in some of your decisions.

And weird, but like you said, you're going to get into yoga or meditation at the gym. You're going to see that in your body is already obviously gravitating towards that because it's weird, but it's kind of like it. Knows that it should. Do you know what I mean? Like, like some people's journaling or whatever it is, but for you, your body's in mind or gravitating to, you know, understanding, healing, getting questions answered.

And a lot of that is within ourselves, right? Like, um, you know, and fellowship is also a big key. You know what I mean? So, and 

AJ Nash: I Yeah. [00:44:00] No, and I agree. And, you know, and that was one of the things I was really thankful for. Again, so many people were so kind and reached out. And, you know, one thing I learned out of all that, you know, and it's funny, you mentioned we started the opening, like people say, I'm sorry, et cetera.

And, you know, it's, I finally, I, you know, I've, I've thanked folks in mass and individually when I can, 

Lance James: know, how do 

you 

AJ Nash: you don't. Oh, it's hard. But I've, said to people, listen, if you don't think what you say matters, I learned how much, you know, how much it does. I've done the same thing. Everybody does something happens.

You're like, I'm really sorry if anything I can do to help. And, you know, I'm really sorry to hear about this. I'm thinking about you, whatever it might be. Those actually do have cumulative effect. Listen, some of them, you realize like, you know, is anything I can do to help. I'm like, come on, we've met one time you live in Kansas.

You're probably not gonna be able to do much for me, but I

Lance James: Well, the good thing about our cybersecurity is our cybersecurity community, we are, and intelligence, but like, we're all very like overly helpful. If anything, we don't always know our own limits with that. But, you

AJ Nash: Totally. Totally. So, but you know, I realized there's a cumulative effect to that. I never really felt alone, even though I, I mean, aside from the dog, I really was for a big stretch there, but I wasn't every day between slack and email, which I still check, uh, between my [00:45:00] phone, you know, signal and LinkedIn.

And, and I mean, there were messages everywhere. I, there wasn't a day that many people didn't remind me, you know,

Lance James: For me it got a little overwhelming for a second because it was all coming in like this and I had calling and wanted to talk like, like, 

have, I have a few people to thank that literally called because they've also had it happen to them and they were calling saying welcome to the losing a child club and blah, blah, blah.

And they kind of, like, walked me through stuff, uh, a buddy of mine who is a Christian knew also that I was Buddhist and would, like, rearrange his words very thoughtfully. He lost a child as well. I went to his child's, uh, funeral back in the day. He came and literally flew up to visit me. And just sit with me, you know, and like, which to me is a very Christian, but also just person thing to do.

Yeah, and like his suffering, as it went later, actually helped me understand my suffering. Because when you, when someone actually has gone through it, you can relate a little bit. And you kind of go, don't feel so like, what do I do? Because there's no map for this crap. Right. You know what I mean? So, 

AJ Nash: no, no, 100%. No, I think, you know, that was that was huge. So listen, we got to move on to the third question here, which ties to this and we've already hit a bunch of it. So it'll help. But, um, you know, In going through all this and having this discussion, so the question was originally written, you know, is, is what did you learn through your experience managing tragedy and grief and how is it changing?

Now, you've already talked a little bit about, it's actually quite a bit about this. So I want to kind of boil this one down a little short, short ourselves a little bit on this one and just say, you know, give me your three biggest takeaways. from managing tragedy and grief, you know, and how they affect you personally and professionally.

Like what were the three things that you either learned from, or you grew the most from, or you're the most thankful for through that process.[00:46:00] 

Lance James: um, I'm probably not going to do it as the way you want it, but I'll try 

to 

do the 

three thing as I can because I'm, I don't think in bullet points,

but, 

um, but I'll, I'll be short and

sweet. 

Um, so, so as we talked about earlier, I was separated from my kids for like 10 years and then my son passed and that funeral was completely the most.

It's a real thing I've ever seen because it was a little like dramatic and weird and I had to keep my wife off of killing the ex, if you know what I mean, that kind of stuff. Um, rightfully so at that time. Anywho, but um, but essentially, it, it kind of, there was something a friend of mine said to me when I was head of that funeral, he, and it, one, I learned about my community.

because at the funeral, everybody just stopped everything. I had a friend who was like FBI guy and he's like totally on vacation, but he's one of my good friends because we worked together for years back in the day. Like best friend kind of person, you know, um, and he stopped his vacation, said, honey, I gotta go.

I'll be back in a bit. Right? And literally, like, just people, like, I was afraid to go to this funeral because back then my ex wife was also kind of like my Goliath and it

was just, you know, some stuff that I just had to not know how to deal with. Um, and no offense to her now, like, everything's been fine.

Um, Um, but, uh, but it was just the position I was in. the three things that are actually, okay, so like, one, I can listen to my wife now in a way that I've always wanted to. What I mean by that is that I'm a talker, I have, like, my ego used to be in the way and defend and debate and all that stuff, like, you know, you're, you're a younger version of yourself, you don't always know that you're there.

But when you get woken up and you get that ego death and it kicks your ass and all this stuff, and I'm not saying my ego's gone, but what I'm saying is it really definitely dampened down. Uh, the insecurities, right? My brain, like, it's kind of a thing where it's like, you can't even hurt me anymore. I have had the worst thing happen to me, so why am I stuck on like, like extra thoughts?

I'm not right. And I believe meditation obviously trained my brain to, like, I used to have 50,000 thoughts at a all the, at the same time. And now it's kind of like, it's nice and sequential, right? So it's calmed me down. Like I can choose to have my energy, right, but I don't feel like I, I used to, like people used to say, even to me, Lance is brilliant, but crazy.

I hated the

AJ Nash: People still say that, Lance.

Lance James: Well,

AJ Nash: People still say that sometimes, Lance. Like, we're good friends. Listen, I, I literally described you that way to somebody just the other day. 

I was like, Lance is genuinely brilliant, but he might be crazy.

Lance James: well, what I'm saying, in a good way, like everybody's But what I mean is like, I I can now be accountable. I can be relied upon before my earlier versions of me. I could not, I could write off my laurels and all my talents. that's its own thing.

But it doesn't, it didn't teach me anything, right? And [00:47:00] now, like, when I do it, like, because of this, like, whatever I went through kind of thing, I finally became the man that I like, where it's like my idealistic version of me became my realistic version of me, and I've been waiting for that for a long time.

I've had the wisdom to understand that I want to be that way, but I could never get it. Right? You know, I'm talking about where you're just growing, right? And it also hit around my 40s, so there might be a great... I personally do think men really become men when they're, like, hit their 40s, if you know what I mean.

Like, we 

really don't know a 

AJ Nash: so young then. 

Lance James: Right? 

AJ Nash: we die younger. We got to work to stay 

Lance James: That's why I'm taking good care of myself, because you never know at 40 and up that if, you know, and I'm 45 now, but, but that kind of, it all kind of compounded in one place. And one of the things I learned is that... I, you know, I practiced and learned how to listen now and I am literally at the place I'm at being second thing.

I let go. So a thing and I, this only works for me. I'm not sure if it works for everybody, but I think there's like a secret to life. Everybody has a jihad when I mean that that is the real term in Arabic means struggle. We're on a narrative. There's something we're holding on to. There's a trauma. There's a this or is that mine was the kids.

The 10 years, this and that, and I was building up anger because of this. I didn't understand it, so of course I'm angry. During COVID, when this [00:48:00] existential crisis started hitting, and then I noticed that I could actually hear my wife, like, completely. I mean, COVID actually was great for us. And what I mean by that, it's not like I don't purposely not listen to my wife, but I...

I was calm and I can actually hear, you know,

to, understand. 

AJ Nash: Absolutely.

Lance James: it's, it was new to me. I'm like, Oh my God, awesome. Right. You know, I just had that moment where I was like, what the hell?

Right. 

AJ Nash: the thing about the pandemic, just to interject quickly, is, we saw lots of stories of, of relationships that completely fell apart, et cetera, but what I'd said to folks is, to me, the pandemic would amplify whatever you had. Right. To be honest, ironically. It was the, some of the best years of the relationship I had with Em as well, it, but if you were unhealthy, it was, it was just gonna amplify it and it And if you were healthier, like we leaned more into the healthier parts of who we were, more time together and, and we had through obviously, and we worked through a lot, but it's funny, I felt like you did.

I started to become a better person. And. In her passing and in my process, I'm not there yet. Of course, as I'm going, [00:49:00] I'm I resonate like what you said totally resonates with me about about becoming the person you want to be. I already feel and I see it. I see it in my actions and my words. I'm a better version of me now, which the irony of that is, that's great.

And I also feel some guilt. I actually was just having a conversation that day. I said, you know, I owed him more than I realized And I didn't, there were things I was, now I'm like, Oh, I was wrong about some stuff that I never got the chance to tell where I was wrong. Cause I didn't realize it. But now it's somewhere in here.

I got a little more clarity and a little more

Lance James: Best way to show her love. The best way to show her love is to keep taking care of you.

That 

AJ Nash: that's and that's exactly where I've landed on this to, you know, I've had discussions and said, listen, you know, there's, we talked a little, you know, everybody at some point, your couple talks about, you know, what happens if I die? What are you going to do? And we all go through a little bit of that, right?

And she had some health issues. So we had some discussions on the subject. It's not the real logistics of it. 

Lance James: Yeah. reality of thinking it 

is actually real is like

what? 

AJ Nash: When I landed where you are, I'm like, listen, this is not somebody who would want me to just pine away and be [00:50:00] miserable. You know, we loved each other and, and, and would want the other person to go on and be a healthier, happier, better person.

Right. And that's, I'm with you. I'm part of honoring people we've lost is to be better and to do the things that we, you know, we were going to do. Right. So I I've gotten, and that's hard because you feel some guilt and some, you know, there's a lot of pieces in that, of course. And, and, but I've also had some reflection like, God, I could have been better.

I'm a better now I'm better now already than I was then. And it's unfortunate. You know, she's been cheated out of that. She's been cheated out of a lot of things that have nothing to do with me, of course, and there's a lot there. But, um, but yeah, I, what you said resonates, right? I'm already like, I feel like I'm a better person now than I was six months ago, which is.

An interesting side effect to some of this. I do find myself listening more. The podcast probably is going to be the best way to prove that, prove that. But I do find myself listening to people more. I do find myself with more empathy, which I was already on a path and working on. I thought, and try and remind myself of what's really important, which again, I'd been on that path.

I've, I've been through tragedy before. I've been through death before. You [00:51:00] know, I lost both 

Lance James: This one's a little bit more like right in the,

yeah, yeah, it's different when it is, it's different when it's a child, like when you're a child and it happens, it edges itself totally different than it does as an adult, an adult, we actually have an opportunity to let go. Hmm. And as a child, it's not really our fault.

We can't really know what to expect our brains to do with that. And so it usually actually engineers some trauma reactions as an adult, you know, as an adult, though, it's kind of that thing where the rule is like, look, if you were poor as a child, that's one thing. But if you're poor as an adult, what I mean in spirit, you know Like you got to change those. You got to just you have an opportunity as an adult to work on it.

AJ Nash: Yeah, there's more maturity and then and then more that goes 

Lance James: right. Obviously with caveats 

of a lot of different

limits and we 

AJ Nash: sure. I mean, there's no, there's 

Lance James: but in our cases, if we have the opportunity to, we should, right? Okay, so I'm going to go back to second one was also letting go of this struggle that I actually during COVID let go.

And I was reading a Buddhist passage that just says love dispels hate, hate never dispels [00:52:00] hate, right? And, you know, it's easier read than done,

AJ Nash: Sure.

Lance James: and I, but I was realizing, like, we all could die, and I had to go through this acceptance in my own meditation that I may never see my daughter, which, which was left, who was left, uh, in this lifetime.

Right. I could die, right? I could. This

vaccines. This was all this other stuff. And I know everybody has different opinions about, but for me, like, this was where I was at in my state. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I could step outside and it could cost my life. Right. And, um, We're all thinking that. And so I meditated on this.

And at the time mom was also suing the people he was with the homeowners associate,

just whatever. And it requires two people in California to sign off. I said, fine, whatever. I didn't, I just didn't want to talk to her at that time. I was definitely raw. Um, but then they won. It was like a hundred thousand, 30, 30, 30, you know, basically against like after legal fees, but like also the lawyer gets paid sweater.

I immediately like meditated on it and I just like. Did this thing where I said give her my half. I just want a receipt for child support [00:53:00] and I literally moved on and let go like I didn't argue and it wasn't angry. It wasn't anything. I don't even care what she did with it. Right. I just was like, I let go and accepted this a month later.

She comes around and my daughter's in my life. So what I'm saying is I learned that letting go. Might be a little bit of a secret. I know it's easier said than done. Easier read than done. But I also practiced an act of compassion with that letting go and it actually kind of like enforced the letting go.

But I literally just let it all go and I just, like I have a deal with my daughter now. I'm not gonna talk bad about your mom, like da da da da. I'm not getting into that stuff, right? We're just gonna have our relationship. And that's the second one. And then the third one is that there's a beauty in suffering when you go, you're still in the early ages, but there's going to be this beauty.

I end up getting like the universe or however you want to put it, but puts me in front of people I can help. And some of them have been during COVID and afterwards, fathers who have lost their children, like, or about to lose their children because maybe they have like a stage four or this or that. And I have literally made [00:54:00] it a duty to share and stick with it with them.

So if they're, they're not alone. Because I'm telling you, it can take you to a dark place. I was definitely in a dark, early spot in there. And you know, I, I'm really blessed that I came out of it, honestly. My wife is a big champion here, but like, God bless her on that, if you know what I mean. So,

like, right?

So, like, so essentially, um, I had a friend who's, um, Chris, he was one of our employees, but also a good friend of mine. He was at our wedding, and he passed away, or like, tragically and suddenly at 32. It was his only son. We went, of course, to the funeral. Allison and I went to the funeral. Jaleesa as well.

Blah, blah, blah. I met his dad. Like, we had just paid off this dude's debt, so we could actually get him here and all this stuff. And it wasn't a kindness thing. It was more of that was like, it's in my way, because I want you to start at Unity. Do you want to be fresh? And there's this long story, but essentially, his dad and I still talk every single day.

And I met his dad through this. So there's this, this beauty, this, this, this. And then recently I was talking to him a couple of, uh, probably about a month ago and he's like, I'm still trying to get like the old me back. I said, stop trying to get the old you back. 

Embrace [00:55:00] the new you. gone. I said embrace this new you.

said I can, I don't regret, I said of course I want my son back, but I don't regret the person since I have survived who I am now. I am completely content and happy with who I am. And he hits me up in the morning, goes, I haven't been able to sleep all night because of something you said. I'm like, well, You know, for

advance, you know, what did I do?

I'm sorry about And then he showed me the thing. He goes, I've been wrestling that for like, the entire time since he's died and it's changed my view 110 percent and I feel much better. And like, this is the, the beauty in suffering is that my suffering then will like be something someone else can go, Oh shoot.

You know how someone goes, Oh, you've never been through that. Actually I have, right. And that is something like, they can, you know, ask questions. I'm like, ask me anything like this and 

AJ Nash: Well, it's it's like paying it forward, but, you know, it's, it's, I mean, we're not forward something, a kindness in this case, but we can turn it into one. And I'm with you. Like, you know, I know we talked a little bit about this 

Lance James: teach compassion. can truly teach

AJ Nash: Totally. And the old you is gone. Like that was something [00:56:00] I'm thankful that I, I guess, having been down this path before, like I already knew that going in.

I was, you know, I, I, but you still do that. Like you had that moment, like, God, I just, I want to get back to what was, and then you have to sit and go, all right, well, that's over. And that's, you know, I told people, listen, that part of my life, that chapter is gone. Like it cannot be recreated. I shouldn't try to, it's unhealthy.

Lance James: Yeah, it'll take you back to a pattern that will repeat

and that 

you may 

AJ Nash: Exactly. You know, in a new relationship you can't say, well, this, I wanna compare this to the last one. These are gonna be 

Lance James: yeah. Comparisons are the joy anyways. They 

AJ Nash: Uh, that's a line. 

Lance James: compare, 

don't 

compare. 

AJ Nash: That's a

great line, 

Lance James: they really are. Not my line, by the way. I've seen that everywhere, but

AJ Nash: Yeah, no, it's a good one though. But I mean, I think that's, you know, I think that's a key piece right? Is, is to that acceptance, right? That's part of the, that's the last step in, in 

Lance James: Yep. 

AJ Nash: that acceptance piece. It takes a lot. Yeah. And, you know, and, and I don't think it comes, it's not a bulk, like I've accepted things.

I don't know if I've accepted everything yet.

Lance James: Once that guilt goes away that you're working out, that's when you'll have acceptance. You [00:57:00] 

AJ Nash: So, 

you know, I think, but I think that's a key one. Right. And, and like, you know, I'm, I have no doubt that he was up all night and it was a big thing to say, yeah, that's it. I got to stop trying to time travel. Basically.

I can't go back. It's done. I've got to get to the point where I go, what are we going to do going forward? You know, this is, this is ended. Great things are still ahead if I allow them to be, but not if I'm continuing to look in the rear view mirror, you know, you got to find where that's

going to be. Right. to be. Right. 

Lance James: on a personal note for you, because you look or you're looking at meditation or yoga, those two will teach you how to be present, which I think practicing being present will help you through for acceptance, even if it's nothing, if it solves nothing else, right? Because I don't want to be like pushing meditation.

your own, right? like my personal way of doing

things. 

AJ Nash: being moment is something I'm

Yeah, 

Lance James: real 

AJ Nash: I've been to do that a long time.

Lance James: and it's when people are happiest to write their mind isn't running with the past or the future. It's just flow, right? I believe life is kind of like input output from all the way to the breath.

If there's nothing friction in between the I. O. Like, what was the thing you said about stress? You had this whole

metric. It was 

AJ Nash: yeah. Yeah. So stress. So I've got this formula for stress. So to me, the definition of stress is the gap between expectation and reality. So no matter what it is, whatever. So if you have low expectations, uh, you're probably a little stress. I mean, you may not accomplish a lot,

Lance James: Or 

just the world as it is.

right.

If you can see the world as it is, accept the world as it is, right front of you. It's a little disappointing to do such. It'll be like, removing some... I'm a rosy colored glasses dude. And, uh, like, I have to kind of, like, do that. But in a weird way though, it makes me smile more now.

Uh, because... It doesn't make me respond to every little thing anymore. And that's another big, that's a bonus thing for me is I don't, I choose my battles like, you know, like, or like if like, say Jaleesa and I get in a quick like little tiff, which is going to happen in a healthy relationship, next day I'm like, yo, we just, we're human.

Let's not stress on this. Like, are we gonna worry about it in 10 years? No. Okay, I'm sorry. You're sorry. Let's move on. Right? Like, and we're legit sorry, right? You know what I mean?

But like, 

AJ Nash: Totally. 

Lance James: like, you know, so, you know.

AJ Nash: And you pick your battles. Yeah. I talked a lot about that, you know, as a younger person, you know, people used to say, you know, you need to pick your battles and I always said, yeah, but I like all the battles and I did, 

I mean, it was a problem and I did I was like, 

Lance James: fights. I love conflict. I'm 

AJ Nash: one that 

matters and now I do find myself finally going, yeah, this doesn't matter enough anymore.

You know what? You can think you want, 

Lance James: Because when you've had that kind of pain... 

AJ Nash: it just. 

Yeah, it does. You know, this isn't worth friction. You know, do I really care if we go to this restaurant or that one? Do I really care about whatever? There's so many petty things that I used to like entrench on every little detail, I think, and I'm just like, you know what?

Whatever. Let's go that direction. Maybe that's the direction we're supposed to go. Maybe that's the right path. Maybe it's a better path. Maybe it's just a path. It doesn't matter. Like, I don't know. I don't have interest, 

Lance James: I mean, if you get into quantum, they're all been made at once 

anyway, so. 

AJ Nash: then, then the key is just to make sure I make sure people know if I go that route, it's not like, I don't care.

I'm not checking out, you know, that isn't it. I'm not saying, ah, whatever, do whatever you want. Like you don't want to be dismissive. It's more of a. It doesn't have to be my way. It can be that way. Let's go do that thing. You know, the fight isn't worth it. These are probably equally valuable choices. Just let's just go with one and move forward and have a good day and have a good life.

So, all right, listen, we got to wrap this up. Um, so those are the three questions, but, uh, I always have one bonus question every episode. Um, so the, the name of this show is unspoken security. So, you know, with that in mind, I ask every guest and I'm going to ask you the same thing. Tell me something you've never told anyone before.

Something that's unspoken.

Lance James: Hmm. Okay. Alright. Um, I bluffed. My first job, I bluffed my way on the resume. It said that it needed Citrix. I had no clue. 

About using and my first job at this company, which I'm not going to [00:58:00] name these people are still my friends to this day that owned it. So, um, but essentially I totally was like, yeah, I know Citrix and I it out along the way.

And so I bluffed it and I, and I padded it a little bit just to get there, but I also ended up getting a great mentor of it that he's like 80 something now and we still talk to this day. He's an ex NSA from the 60s guy, right? You know, so like some Vietnam War shit. Um, but yeah, like in a weird way, I don't regret it.

I don't necessarily say everybody should do it. but I think that, you know, you can still hold like fake it till you become it kind 

of, 

uh. 

Yeah, because like honestly it drove me during the interviews. I was just like looking up freaking Citrix left and right So I I mean I totally played the game, but I wanted that job and honestly It was one of the first best jobs you could ever have so it's kind of cool.

AJ Nash: Yeah. I think that's awesome, man. Thanks for sharing that. Like I'm getting some really interesting ones here as I start putting these together. Uh, you're not the. The only person certainly who has a story sort of like, I mean, yours is interesting in itself. Um, you know, they're all unique, but yeah, there's a pattern to some of this stuff.

And I can say, uh, I have, uh, one position in my past where I'm not planning on making this a confession of me every time I do an episode, cause everybody's gonna know everything about me, but I can't help it because this sounds familiar. 

Lance James: I think everything what did they say if you if you have everything out there then you don't have to worry about

AJ Nash: That's right. I got no blackmail to worry about. So 

I remember a position I was interviewing for [00:59:00] and I had to interview with some people.

I'd be working with some peers and we did it remotely. We did it by zoom or Skype or whatever we're using at the time. And so I had my computer obviously to do it. And they asked me a question. I didn't know the answer to. but I'm a pretty decent public speaker and I can kind of keep things going and I can multitask.

So while I was working towards the answer, I was Googling and I, I found the right documentation, like, yes. And then I, you know, I subtly looped it in. So I answered the question. I didn't like read a page. It would've been too obvious. I answered the question. I didn't have the knowledge in my own head. I had it in my own head by the end of the day, though.

I 

Lance James: Yeah, and honestly, our job, half our 

AJ Nash: but 

Lance James: down to being resourceful.

That can 

figure out how to figure out the problem? That's question. A lot of people don't want the people's memorized rote. They want the that went outside and like did a measurement, like figured out how to problem solve, right.

And, and didn't have the answer right off the bat because they looked it up.

AJ Nash: Yeah. The guy the guy that interviewed me might've known, he might not have, I don't really [01:00:00] know, but I think, you know, that's the key. Right. Can you find it quickly? Can you get me, can you get me the answer I need? Might've been all he was looking for, you know, and I was able to do that obviously subtly in a way that nobody, I don't think it was, it wasn't obvious.

I don't think they actually ever did. So, you know, and then I learned that stuff like you, I'm sure you went and dug into Citrix and you knew it very quickly. that's what I did. I was like, I'm going to need this for the

Lance James: Actually surprised how easy it was. I mean, I didn't realize it was mostly just a UI thing. I was a Linux kid back then. So this was like, okay, whatever.

AJ Nash: All right, man, listen, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much, you know, for coming on today and helping me get this podcast going and you know, I, I couldn't thank you enough. You know, you're. We'll have you back for other things. We can talk on a lot of other topics, obviously along the way. Um, but thanks for taking the time, you know, Lance James, CEO at unit 221b.

And obviously a good friend of mine. Uh, if you're looking for some of the things they do, I highly recommend checking out their website. Frankly, these guys are amazing. He mentioned, you mentioned Alison Nix. I got to get Alison on here. I'll to her. Alison's way smarter than both of us. And, uh, I just got to figure out what we can have on here that I can [01:01:00] hang in with her at all, or I should just get out of the way, probably.

She's just too smart,

Lance James: Honestly, just let her, let 

AJ Nash: there. 

Lance James: go at it and you'll, you'll,

AJ Nash: to, I 

want yeah, 

she takes out bad guys all the time in amazing ways. So I 

Lance James: yeah, she's probably the best hacker hunter I've ever met. So, you know,

AJ Nash: Yeah, I, if you say so, I'm sure that's the truth. Like I think she's brilliant. So I want to get her on here, but today it was about you.

Thank you for coming on, man. I really appreciate you being here. Uh, I appreciate you as a friend. Uh, and looking forward to talking more, but, That's it for this episode of Unspoken Security. Uh, until next time, you know, thanks for tuning in.

Looking forward to sharing more and having more conversations down the road. Thank you.

Lance James: At least mutual brother. I have a good one. Thanks. 

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