Spite as Career Fuel

In this episode of Unspoken Security, AJ Nash is joined by our first social media star...Gabrielle Hempel! Also known as LadyG on Twitter (@gabsmashh) - with over 100,000 followers - she also focuses on making the world a safer place as a Customer Solutions Engineer for LogRhythm.

(NOTE: Gabrielle was actually recorded as AJ's second guest on Unspoken Security - way back in October! - but we saved her appearance until we built our own audience so we weren't just taking advantage of her following.)

Gab and AJ have a fun and interesting conversation about Gabrielle's unusual path from working in an auto repair shop in Ohio - where she was almost stabbed! - to become an expert and influencer in cybersecurity. Gab shares how she grew from a shy child into a confident, powerful voice in cybersecurity, including some incredible stories of overcoming the opinions and assumptions of others. She learned how to assess risk and resolve conflicts in some dangerous real-world scenarios, and combined that with her incredible education (B.A., in Psychology, B.S. in Neuroscience, & MS in Global Security, Conflict, and Cybercrime from NYU).

With all the things in her life - social media, public speaking, a cybersecurity career, and a family - Gab offers her lessons learned and advice (including the power of saying "no") to get closer to the work/life balance most people need to avoid burning out in an industry where it is so easy to do. AJ added some interesting insights and leadership tactics he's also used to help teammates maintain a more balanced life.

This episode even had an additional special guest when AJ's dog Ryleigh couldn't resist meeting Gab! Ryleigh probably heard how much fun AJ and Gab were having and wanted to get some camera time, too.

As always, the show wraps up with our guest revealing something that had, to this point, gone "unspoken." Download this episode to find out Gabrielle's secret because you will ABSOLUTELY want to give her (and probably AJ) a hard time after you hear this!

Transcript

Unspoken Security Ep 9: Spite as Career Fuel

AJ Nash: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Unspoken Security brought to you by ZeroFox, the only unified external cybersecurity platform. I'm your host, AJ Nash. For those who don't know me personally or are first time listeners, I'm a traditional intelligence guy who spent nearly 20 years in the intelligence community.

Both within the U S air force. And then as a defense contractor, most of that time was spent at NSA. I've been in the private sector for about eight years now, primarily building or helping other people build effective intelligence, driven security practices. I'm passionate about intelligence, security, public speaking, mentoring, and teaching.

I'm also deeply committed to servant leadership, which is why I completed my master's degree in organizational leadership at Gonzaga university. Go Zags. And it is Gonzaga, not Gonzaga. So the goal of this podcast is to bring all of these elements together with some incredible guests and have authentic unfiltered conversations, even debates about a wide range of challenging topics.

Most of us are faced with every day. This will not be the typical polished [00:01:00] podcast. You may hear or see my dog. She's right over here. I promise. Uh, people may swear here. I certainly will. Uh, we may argue or debate and that's all okay. Uh, think of this podcast as the conversation you might overhear at a bar after a long day at one of the large cybersecurity conferences.

These are the conversations we usually have when nobody's listening. Uh, today, you know, good example, our guest is the sort of famous gab smash from social media. So whether you follow her on Twitter, X, whatever the hell they are today, uh, or Instagram, I think those are the only two. Gabby also told me no, but it's, uh, Gabrielle Hempel.

So Gabby's a rare unicorn, uh, with a strong popcorn. Background in cybersecurity and neuroscience, which you just don't run into a lot. So we're going to get into that. Uh, she's currently working as a solutions architect for global security company, logarithm, Gab, anything you want to add to that introduction?

Gabrielle Hempel: Nope, I think you pretty much touched all the interesting pieces already.

AJ Nash: That is not true. And we're going prove that while we talk today, you're way more interesting than that, but a [00:02:00] woman, a few words can make for an interesting podcast that way. But actually, yeah, it's a pretty good chatter. So, all right, listen, let's, let's dig in. We got a lot of here, man. Uh, we're going to talk, you know, we, we talk a lot about how there's like, not one path in a cybersecurity, right?

How many times have you listened to people talk about it? We talked about it, you know, among ourselves, you hear it on podcasts. Right. But you're actually a really good example of that. Like a quick look at your resume. If anyone wants to look on LinkedIn, it's pretty cool. Uh, like you got education in psychology, neuroscience, you got a master's in global security now for NYU.

Fancy, fancy. Uh, and then you've got this experience across, you know, you're in a regulatory, you've done analysis, you've done engineering. And, I mean, I happen to know you're also a gearhead. So, like, there's a lot going on there and a lot of different ways to get into cyber security. But, the interesting thing is the title of this episode.

Is spite as career fuel, and you're the one who chose that title. So I want to get back to that. Like, I want to really dig into that. We're going to talk about this background, but spite as career fuel. [00:03:00] What do you mean by spite as career fuel? You know, what does that come from? And how have you used spite like to get you where you are today?

Gabrielle Hempel: it started at a young age.

AJ Nash: Doesn't it always.

Gabrielle Hempel: No, so I, I mean, I went to a religiously affiliated all girls school when I was. you know, high school and stuff like that, and I never really knew that. Cyber security, or even computer science was. An option, we had 1 computer class that was taught by a. None, and she

AJ Nash: Was she really good at

Gabrielle Hempel: had to be No, she had to be like, 150 dude.

Like, I don't know how they always like, live past the expiration date, but.

AJ Nash: Brutal.

Gabrielle Hempel: Oh, man, like, and, like, the entire class was just her yelling at us. And we [00:04:00] copied passages from. Books into Word documents, learn how to format them and that was, like, the extent of my computer education.

AJ Nash: Wow. Okay. Seems really

Gabrielle Hempel: So it kind of started there because I was like, Oh, I want to take my brother, was I'm an all guys school, like one of our brother's schools.

And he got to take all kinds of really cool classes. Like they had like web design, engineering shop class, which I would have killed to take something like that. But like, if I asked about it, they were just like, no, like, I mean, we had a home ec classes. We had childcare classes. So it was definitely one of

AJ Nash: traveler, Gab? Like, were you raised in like the 40s? Like, you're younger than I am. Like, how is this possible? You're speaking about something like, that just doesn't make any sense. You're from Ohio, right?

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, and I graduated in

AJ Nash: anybody's curious about that. 2010, and you weren't allowed to take SHOP, it was HOMAC, and you weren't allowed to take real cool computer classes.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, we just didn't really have them and I mean, I think a lot of it's the religious affiliation, but, uh, [00:05:00] yeah, it was definitely 1 of those things where it's like now, like, I don't know. It felt like a nudging, like, know your place. Right? And that that bothered me because I, that that just didn't I didn't vibe with that.

That was what I wanted to do. I want to do fun stuff. And so that was kind of how I started leaning more in towards some of the science things. I had actually fought at my school too, because we had, like. A semester of psychology there, and that was like. One of the hard sciences, right? Like, at the school and I actually fought finally to be able to take, like, the AP psych exam because I was like, no, like, I want to go in a 2nd neuroscience and stuff like that.

And, um, ended up, they were like, fine. Like, if you fail, you fail. We have that as a class offering. So,

AJ Nash: super encouraging.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, but I, hey, I got, I got a good enough score. I think I got a 4, which like, it's a 4 out of 5. So

AJ Nash: Okay.

Gabrielle Hempel: I did. All right. I got some college credit for that. But, um, yeah, just, I [00:06:00] don't know. I don't I don't like when people it's a recurring theme as you'll see.

I don't love when people tell me I can't do something.

AJ Nash: Yeah. mean that, and that makes good sense. Right? Like nobody likes that. I suppose. Right. Nobody likes told can't do something, but I think, I mean, it's one of the things I like about you. I like about you, but that. You have a history, like you said, of just saying, Oh, I can't. All right. Well, you know, I'm going to show you, right?

I know, you know, you're talking about the nuns. If I'm not mistaken, there was an ex boyfriend in there someplace. You're talking about this whole spite as career fuel. Talk, tell us about that guy. What happened there?

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, so, like, further on in my career, which it was a weird journey into cyber security. I worked in regulatory science and stuff after graduating college, um, worked in pharma regulation and with medical devices and stuff like that. And I was really interested in the cyber security aspect, because I kept dealing with these medical devices that had vulnerabilities.

And I was like, what is happening? Why are people trying to hack this? I didn't even know that was a thing. Right? And my ex at the time actually had his own hosting company. [00:07:00] And so he was super deep in computers had been, I mean, he started that company when he was like, 16. it was just crazy. Like, he was really good at it.

I mean, I'm not gonna lie at that point, but he essentially told me I was like, this cybersecurity stuff's really interesting and he straight up told me like, oh, you're, you're not smart enough to go into that field.

AJ Nash: Oh, I don't mean to laugh. I mean, obviously I'm laughing because it's ridiculous. Cause I don't know how smart are, but that's ridiculous.

Gabrielle Hempel: excuse me.

AJ Nash: and you were, was your boyfriend at the time. Like is. He's not anymore. I'm obviously, I'm sure that was not helping the relationship any, but what a

Gabrielle Hempel: Not really, that was 1 of the turning points. Um, so, yeah, it was just like, seriously. Okay. And then I started. Studying, uh, did a lot of self study, like. To get into, um. A place where I was able to break into the field, but, you know, I had a lot of fuel from other places too.

It's a hard field to break into. And I think 1 of the things that's really important to remember is. [00:08:00] I mean, I probably got told no 50 times 100 times. I don't even know, like. So many interviews where I would get in and they would be like, tell me about this technology and it wasn't something I had learned yet.

So I was like, I don't know. And they would get very. Well, maybe you shouldn't be looking for a job in this field, like,

AJ Nash: Lovely. Did I, this is a trick question. I know, but in that case, like, was it, did you perceive that as gatekeeping? Like just in general, like, Hey, you don't know this specific thing. Was it shitty interviewing processes or did you see the, I mean, did you feel like there was gender as part of that equation?

I hate bringing that up. I really like to bring up the gender thing every time I bring a woman on because, you know, But in this case, they have to ask, right? And you're saying this, like, do you think it would have done to anybody? Or was it, was there some of the misogyny like you've already been talking about with, you know, like the nuns and your boyfriend?

Like there's a back or ex boyfriend. There's a background in that.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, I don't know. I think it, it was a mix. I think it really depended on the situation. Um, there were times when I think it was just kind of gatekeep you like, well, uh, not at a certain level or not the caliber that we want or whatever. [00:09:00] There are other times where it was just a specific issue. There were times when I did feel like, God, there was an interview that I had 1 time that, like, dude said something and I was like, I can't believe you just said that, like. Like, it was if someone at my work had said something like that, they would be fired the next week. Like, it was that level of like. Egregious misconduct and so there was definitely someone that interviews, but I don't I don't know. I mean, we could talk about. Sexism in the industry all day. I think that everyone's got a different story when it comes to it and stuff like that I feel like i've been pretty lucky in that.

I haven't dealt with it quite as much as a lot of people but um It really just seems situation dependent. So

AJ Nash: Makes sense. So, all right. So we got the nuns. We got the ex boyfriend who clearly was like gonna, you're gonna prove him wrong. Makes sense. What do you think, like, uh, if you're running direct [00:10:00] recruiters and, you know, what are the industry norms? I mean, again, we're talking about, you know, this is the whole topic being, again, spite is a career field, right?

I mean, how have you about, about that? I mean, you kind of got into that already. You're talking about some of the, you know, the interview processes, but, you know, any challenges there that you, you know, have fueled you well in terms of what's through the norms, I guess, of hiring.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, just again, people telling you, like, there was 1 that sticks out to me. I mean, a lot of them are just, oh, you don't really know what we want you to know. Um, a lot of people, like, afterwards, after the interviews, I reach out a lot of times and be like, hey, like, if I don't get the job, I'll be like, hey, like, just.

What gaps, like, if I wanted a job like this in the future, what, what are the gaps that I need to fill? Right? And most people are pretty responsive to that. And really, like, it's a good conversation. There was 1, it was a government. Adjacent role, I don't think it was with I know you're already shaking your head.

AJ Nash: I know where is headed. Yeah. There's so many of these good stories. I got to hear yours They're all a little different.

Gabrielle Hempel: It was on a base somewhere and it was [00:11:00] doing. Some information security stuff with. The base, and at some point they asked me a couple, it was very weirdly specific questions. Like, even now, I think I went like, this was years ago, like, when I was 1st, getting into the field, but even now I would look back and be like, why, like, why?

Like, that's not relevant. I don't know. Just but back then I was just trying to prove myself and stuff like that. And yeah, there would be times when this, this person would literally at the end of, like, the interview, he was like, why are you trying to get a job in this field? Because. You don't know what you need to know, like, straight up and I was just like, like, and he started getting frustrated during the interview to like, we would talk like, I would be like, oh, I don't know 100 percent of this answer, but I can talk kind of to it.

Like, I'll tell you what I do now and stuff like that. We'd be like, well, don't waste my time, you know, like, just. Oh, my God, I was like, I've never felt like I was seriously sitting there during the interview. Like, I want to hang up right now. Like, is it rude to hang up in the middle of an interview?[00:12:00] 

AJ Nash: it won't get you the job. That's for sure. But doesn't, it doesn't sound like going places in that particular one anyway.

Gabrielle Hempel: So, yeah, there's definitely and that just made me mad, though, like, at the end of the day, I was like, okay, like, who's this dude to tell me? Like, why are you trying to get into this field? You clearly don't know what you're supposed to know. So, like that. So I'm going to go and be successful and then he's going to regret it down the field down the road.

So that's just what I. Wanted to get out of that, I guess,

AJ Nash: Nice. Well, I can relate to that. I, know, can certainly relate to it. I'm, I've been known to want to prove people wrong on things too. I think I think a lot of us, I think a lot of us in the industry do, frankly, I think, you know, if you're in security, if you're in cybersecurity, if you're a hacker, which I'm not, but I know people who are obviously, you know, just a hacker mentality, right?

A lot of it is just wanting to prove people wrong, right? And, you know, everybody, I, not everybody, I guess, but a lot of people I talked to, a lot of people I know, a lot of bright people, a lot of smart people. Somebody someplace said they weren't good enough for whatever the thing is. They now [00:13:00] excel at, Um, and you're, you're the perfect example. So, you know, here you've got the nuns who clearly were like, ah, women shouldn't do men's things. And so, I mean, that's what you're saying. I don't know how you ended up in 1940s middle America somehow, but, uh, you know, anyway, you had that, you had the ex boyfriend who straight up told you you couldn't do it, that's ridiculous.

And then these recruiters and now just, you know, quick. Quickly taking a look back at the resume, you know, just to throw it on the, on there for anybody who doesn't know, uh, bachelor's in psychology, a bachelor's in neuroscience, a master's in global security conflict

Gabrielle Hempel: A lot of student loans. On this.

AJ Nash: from, from NYU. Yeah. I'm going to read this.

I'm going to read the bio, man. So, uh, like. It seems like, and of course, you know, where you've been working, right. We can get into your background, but you know, as we're talking about like regulatory and cybersecurity, clearly you like to prove people wrong. And you obviously have, you're killing it across all of these different areas now.

So, you know, having gone through this process, both, uh, you know, the, the, the process of being told what you couldn't do and your own discovery, you said you did [00:14:00] some self, you know, self taught and self learning, and then of course, you know, the formal education you got, like, what do you see as the advantages?

Of your diverse education and work experiences. Like you've done these things. I said, you've done, there are a lot of people who've done what you've done, who've come across and done, uh, uh, global security, but they also have done, um, uh, regulatory, right. Which is, you know, uh, kind of an area where a lot of people don't get into, for instance.

Um, and you know, now you're in solution sides and you're working more with like the customer side of thing. Right. So what do you see as, as like advantages of all that diverse education, diverse work experiences, like other skills or processes? From those other areas that you found useful, you know, when you got into cyber as well, because you've done things before cyber, obviously too.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, that's 1 of the things I think. 1 of the gatekeeping, there's also, I guess you could tie this back to some of the spiteful spitefulness to there were definitely people along the road that were like, oh, you have to go into cybersecurity this specific way. Right? Like, you, but you, you've [00:15:00] definitely seen that.

Right? Like, that's like, 1 of the. I feel like primary arguments in our industry is how to get into the industry and people are like, so many people are like, you have to do help desk and then you have to do sysadmin and then you have to go do network engineering. And then maybe you can start thinking about doing security, but you can't just go from, like, not being in the industry to security, like, people were like, you have to take a certain path.

And I think that that's really narrow minded because, um. What we need is different perspectives. If every single person took that same path in the industry, then you're going to get that same opinion from every single person. And a lot of people that I've worked with that. I've had really different backgrounds have.

Brought some crazy things to the table that, like, I never would have expected. Yeah.

AJ Nash: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, I agree. You know, and it's funny, I think, I don't know, I'm curious about your experience, but a lot of people, people are running to her who, like you said, the half juice, right? You have to go this route. You have to do this first. It just feels like they're telling me [00:16:00] what they did, like, this your path.

So now it must be the path. Right. And, and clearly there's not one path. I, I, I don't know. I know two, any two people who have the same path, frankly, if you have to do these to get there, that it's, it, there's a problem. My path doesn't meet that. You know, and people ask me, obviously mine's a little different.

I, you know, I mean, I mean, Intel, I'm not a tech. I'm not on the tech side as much, right. I'm depending on how you ask my family. My family thinks I'm technical. I can fix a lot of their crap. But in the real world, among smart people like you, I'm not technical at all. I'm an idiot, but you know, how do you get into Intel?

People ask me and I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I was in the air force and then I was in, and I say, I wouldn't tell people that's the only way to do cyber intelligence. That's ridiculous. Like there's great university programs that do it. You can have a good technical background and join a team and we'll teach you how to be an Intel analyst, you know, in cyber intelligence, there's a lot of ways to get there.

I just feel like people would say it's a have to it's because that's the path they took and either they're too myopic to realize there's more than one path. Or they're just advocating to remind themselves that they made the right choices in their life and that their path is the path and or [00:17:00] their gatekeeping.

I want to slow you down. Right? Oh, no, you got to do these things first for you to be me. Because if you just jump in and pick my job, you know, one next to me, then why did I waste my time doing these other things first? You know, it just ends up being very frustrating that people mirror. Whatever their experience was, as though that's the only answer, right?

But even beyond that, like in your case, so we, I hinted at it earlier. I got to dig into it now. You're a gearhead too. So, you know, aside from the stuff we just talked about, all the education and all the experience and, and, you know, the cyber stuff you're like. You got to tell people about this because I didn't know about that we started talking about.

This doesn't show up a lot like, you know, I mean I've, I've followed you and we've talked before. Talk about your background there, like growing up working with cars and, and how that, you know, relates to this, how that fit in for you.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, so, I mean, I've always not always been into cars, but, like, I guess. Always had an appreciation for them. 1 of my uncle's had a repair shop when I was growing up and got to see that every once in a while. And then, you know, [00:18:00] once I was in. Um, high school, I was working waitressing and hosting at like different restaurants and I hated it and one of my friends, um, that I'd made through school worked.

In auto parts, like he was dead set on being a mechanic and stuff like that. And I was just like, that sounds better than where I'm at. Like, get me out of here. So he, like, I just remember sitting there and like, he was quizzing me on like different car parts and stuff like that. And like, cause like the interview, you actually had to know some stuff.

Um, but started working in parts once I worked there for a while, got enough knowledge to where I was working on a lot of stuff. Um, kind of external to the parts job, and then moved into being like, a loop tech mechanic and then doing more advanced mechanic stuff. So it was, it was a pretty cool experience, but it was definitely 1 of those skills where I was like, oh, like, I don't know how this is going to come in handy later.

And then when you're down the [00:19:00] road, you sit there and you're like, wow, that, like, that job helps a lot. I mean, we're young cars. Is one of those things where there's especially because I, like, I worked for a Volkswagen. So, you know, like, the super fun electrical issues that sometimes the older Volkswagen's had, and it was like, you had to tear apart the whole car to do anything.

It was never easy. Um, and it was 1 of those things that made you a really good problem solver because there were steps that you followed to maybe not have to do as much work as you. Uh, like, might ultimately have to do, like, start with the small things and then build it up. And it made you really good at kind of taking apart that problem from, like.

What could be the easiest fix to, like, going down that pyramid and, um, again, same with reverse engineering, right? Like, it's, it's. Trying to figure out the cause of a problem a lot of the times, or like, what, how, how it's put together to where that problem is and it also, um. Made [00:20:00] me really good at dealing with really angry people.

Like, I, the

AJ Nash: you mean people get angry at cars at car places when their cars like is having problems people are frustrated by that

Gabrielle Hempel: Yes, people bringing their cars in, like, would be pissed because yeah, I mean, nobody wants to be going to the mechanic and, you know, if you're going to the mechanic, you're spending money and nobody wants to have an unexpected expense, but especially, like, once you got to the money part and they realized, like, how much they had to spend, people would get really hostile. But I also, the parts store that I worked at was, like, in the hood, like. Regular shootings outside the front door, like hood. So made me really good at de escalation and like.

AJ Nash: because you never know if they're packing

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, I would be okay, calm down. Like, we don't, we don't have to get into it here, man. Like, it'll, it'll be all

AJ Nash: Right, it's

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, it's definitely a really good at dealing with some people that were very unhappy and kind of talking them off the ledge.

And that has become such an important skill. Like I [00:21:00] used to, like before that time, like when I was younger, I was a shy child. might be hard to believe I was like, my mom would be like, hey, can you go ask the store clerk for this? And I would freeze. I'd be like, I can't talk to people like. And I have it made me I kind of was forced to talk to everyone in that role.

Right? And, like. Deal with hostile people and eventually I was like, you know, like, people don't really scare me. And just got better at dealing with people that were. Very unhappy and deescalating situations and that has been such a big skill in cyber security. Um, I know a lot of people, it was interesting.

I posted something on Twitter a while ago saying, hey. What skills have you gotten from other jobs that you didn't think would be transferable to cyber security and they were, and there were some crazy, like. jobs, I'd never even thought of that. I was like, huh, that's awesome. Like, the 1 that sticks out to me was library science and she's like, I studied library science and been [00:22:00] really helpful in cyber security and she was so much reasons why.

And I was like, that's fascinating. Like, I never would have made that crossover. Right? But,

AJ Nash: Yeah, I've run into that once before. It's funny. You mentioned library sciences. Cause I worked on a team once. We had somebody in journalism and somebody who had library science background and like you, I'm sure I was like, first I had to figure out what library science was. I was like, all right, it's a librarian.

I mean, it's not that hard to figure out as it turns out, but, but yeah, they're really good at research. They're really good at organization. Like there's a whole, I mean, that person ran our entire catalog of all of our databases and everything. Like they are really good at some, I mean, there's some very cool school skill sets that I never would have thought about.

Um, so that's a really good example. Journalism, I think, makes more sense, people, especially if you write Intel reports, like understanding how to do how to write and how to communicate. That one was less shocking to me, I suppose. But it's funny you mentioned library science because I've now heard that one.

That's the first time I've heard it other than the one time I ran into it myself. But were there any other interesting, I mean, we got yours. I still want to go through the rest of yours. Obviously, the car thing you already mentioned. Hostile neighborhood, hostile people, possibly [00:23:00] getting shot. Certainly going to make you good at de escalation.

I'm sure that comes in handy because cybersecurity, we get the same stuff without the gunplay, hopefully, but people are frantic, right? I mean, incidents happened, like people are panicked and they're freaking out. So being able to and focus matters, right? Good.

Gabrielle Hempel: Quick story time I never got shot at, but someone did try to stab me in that job and that's when I quit. Um,

AJ Nash: That seems like a good reason to move on to something else. Yeah, I

Gabrielle Hempel: yeah, I felt I was like, I'm getting paid 9 dollars an hour. I am not getting paid enough to be stabbed while I'm working.

AJ Nash: No. Now I'm curious, what is enough? Like is there, what number would you be willing to be stabbed while you're working? You don't have to answer that. I don't know if there is

Gabrielle Hempel: that is can of worms. I have conversation with my brother a lot, actually, because he's law enforcement. And he is grossly underpaid, and I know that there are people that like, and don't like law enforcement and. Whatever, whatever side you sit on of that equation at the end of the day, it's an unsafe [00:24:00] job. And he's like, we, we had a salary discussion one time and he's like, so you're telling me you make four times what I do sitting in your pajamas half day.

AJ Nash: Hey, don't tell people that they're gonna make us come into the office. Don't tell

Gabrielle Hempel: And he's like, he's like, I'm with people trying to spit on me and shoot me and it was a whole whole thing. So I don't, I don't know. what. What salary I would be willing to be stabbed at, but I don't think it's my current one either.

AJ Nash: No, no, it's not mine here. It's definitely not nine bucks an hour. I don't know if it's mine You know, it's, I mean, we have those teachers are underpaid and they're getting shot at out to like the military. There are some inherent, the military, at least law enforcement. They're inherently dangerous jobs.

I think we all assume I'm not anybody went school. Yeah, I'm not sure anyone went to school for elementary education and thought they'd have to worry about getting a shot at work. But, um, so yeah, it's, it's gotten crazy, but I'm glad you weren't [00:25:00] shot or

Gabrielle Hempel: Me too.

AJ Nash: out. And I think it was probably a good time to look for another another career opportunity.

I mean, you credit. You wait until you almost got stabbed before you quit. That's pretty impressive.

Gabrielle Hempel: Hey, I held out. Even my boss was like, you know what, I don't really blame

AJ Nash: You didn't have a

Gabrielle Hempel: He's like, I'm really sorry. It was just, it was, it was, yeah, it goofy because.

AJ Nash: it was reasonable. All right. So, I mean, but you learned a lot, as you said, you know, in the car business, um, you know, and, and working on cars and de escalation so, but other places where, you know, things have been transferable to cyber, so let's talk like psych and neuro, like you've got a background, like this, this blows my mind.

Like this, I'm not gonna lie. This is, I think. Probably around the time, maybe around the time I started, uh, like following you on social and stalking you before we got to know each other a little bit. But, um, the bachelors. Oh, hello.

Gabrielle Hempel: Be

AJ Nash: my dog might show up eventually. That's Riley. She does occasionally.

Gabrielle Hempel: I want to be part of this. You

AJ Nash: yeah, she wants to be on the show. You [00:26:00] can't be a guest. You don't have a topic. Uh, but you've got double bachelors, right? You've got a bachelor's in psychology and a bachelor's in neuroscience. What did that bring us transferable skills into like cyber? How'd that help? Hi, honey.

Gabrielle Hempel: know, at 1st, I was really concerned because I was like, wow, I just spent 5 years of my life working on these degrees and I am throwing it away. But then.

AJ Nash: But you still have debt, I'm sure, so at least you had that to come for

Gabrielle Hempel: That one, luckily, like, I, I was working as a mechanic to pay my way through college, so I don't have a ton of undergrad debt. It's mostly grad debt.

So, which is good because pay my start back up this month, so. I'm going to die, but, but, yeah, no, they're super transferable. I think there's a lot of, um, it was an interview with. A large social media company uh. That

AJ Nash: you name names if you want or not, whatever's safer you.

Gabrielle Hempel: I, [00:27:00] uh, I interviewed at Twitter and um, this was like 20, even know, 20 16, 20 17 maybe.

I don't know. So it a while ago, but, um, when Twitter wasn't a dumpster

AJ Nash: now. I gotcha.

Gabrielle Hempel: um, but it was with the blue team there and it was really cool and I didn't have a ton of skills. In that area yet, so I ultimately wasn't offered a job, but the interview was really, really neat in that. Like, we talked about why those some of those psychology skills and everything are transferable and it kind of got me thinking.

I was like, huh, that makes a lot of sense. And then once you start digging into both the red team and blue team side of things, you realize that understanding how people are thinking, how attackers think. Is super helpful, because it's 1 thing to understand the tech side of things and the methodology that they might use.

But it's another thing to understand why they might do something and, [00:28:00] um, where they would logically go next or what their end goal is and like, how they would try to get there. Um, I know it can also be really, really transferable when it comes to social engineering. That's psychology 1 on 1, right? So, um.

Yeah, so yeah, uh, it's, it's super transferable. It's, it's been really neat to try and translate that. And I think I did a presentation a couple years ago on like, how psychology is, uh, can be translated to cyber security and how it matters and how understanding your attacker is really, really important because otherwise you're just kind of shooting, trying to shoot fish in a barrel.

Right? So, uh, I'm sure you understand, you know, from the threat intelligence side of things as well. Like, Understanding why people do things and what motivates them and the reasoning behind what they're doing, um, is huge. And it's really important. So.

AJ Nash: Oh, yeah, you're totally speaking my language. I mean, this is, this is a big part of, of intelligence, right? Whether it's, whether it's traditional Intel, like government space, whether it's cyber Intel now, [00:29:00] uh, some of the best people I know, you know, it's about getting into the head of the adversary and understanding like, where do they come from?

Um, you know, and frankly, that's not even just cyber. I mean, that's physical, that's counterterrorism. You know, that's, that's, you know, military operations a lot of times is being able to get in and Okay. And have a different perspective you can bring because you'll have people who don't have perspective and they're like, well, this is what's gonna happen.

Or, you know, this is what we've seen before. And you got to explain well, but the geopolitics has changed or their motivation probably more like this, not that and bring other pieces in. Right. And in your case, I mean, having that specific education, you know, in the psych and neuroscience, which gives you a really big strong foundation to stand on, right?

To bring that to the table with credibility. The other problem you run into sometimes is if somebody has an opinion and be like, well, I've spent years studying these adversaries, but maybe you don't have the credentials and you can get blown off. Like you've got these hefty credentials. I mean, somebody can't look at that and go, ah, she doesn't know what she's talking about.

Degrees

Gabrielle Hempel: Depends on scenario.

AJ Nash: What does she know? So it's pretty impressive. Uh, to be able to come in there and say, this is how people think. And this is the [00:30:00] education I have to support that thought process. I have

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, and I 

AJ Nash: cool.

Gabrielle Hempel: I think part of that's what drew me to that grad program. I was into, um, you know, global security conflict and cybercrime. it was a really good mix of, you know, this is the cyber side of things. This is, um, you know, how technically we would do things, but it also I took a couple of courses that were like, 1 was an entire course on conflict in the Middle East.

Um, another one was all about global cyber powers and what each country has kind of brought to the table historically in terms of cyber security and, um, as an adversary and things along those lines and what might be a motivator for some of these countries. And we did a lot of stuff with, like, Atlantic Council.

We did their cyber 912 and stuff like that, and did a lot of positing around China and Taiwan and stuff like that. And it. Having that psychology background really helps. There as well to kind of, [00:31:00] I don't know. That was, that was a perfect storm. 'cause I had the psychology background and I had the technical background from working in the field for a while.

So going into that program, I was like, oh, like I finally see how these two interconnect. Right? So,

AJ Nash: That's very cool. And then, so when you did that, so undergrad was universities, Cincinnati, and then, so grad was NYU and you were there, right? You went to New York, like this is, this wasn't You were actually in New York and then.

Gabrielle Hempel: just depending, but.

AJ Nash: right. Oh, I got an alarm going off. That's a mistake. Let's kill that.

Uh, all sorts of stuff happening today around here. So, so you're, you did New York and then, uh, you moved, you are where now?

Gabrielle Hempel: I am in Utah.

AJ Nash: in Utah now. Right. All right, cool. Which is beautiful and awesome. So, you know,

Gabrielle Hempel: beautiful. Ski stuff ready? I'm

AJ Nash: What's that?

Gabrielle Hempel: I got my ski stuff ready. Picked up my gear last weekend. So,

AJ Nash: right. You're a big skier. Yeah. You guys, well, it's, it's getting close to ski season, uh, closer than I'd like it to be, frankly, as a Minnesota guy, I could live without the winter, but I know it's coming, [00:32:00] um, sorry.

And then, so you mentioned grad school, uh, you know, I I'm curious just whether they want to pull it out. Before we move to the last question we have up here, but in grad school, how much writing did you guys have to do? Like, I know some people don't do much as technical in undergrad. Some do a ton. I imagine you did some already in undergrad with, you know, with doing psych and neuro, but like, was there more writing in grad school?

Was it different? Did that help you in your career going forward too? Was that a big part of it for you?

Gabrielle Hempel: Grad school was another animal and it was crazy. So, like, my undergrad GPA actually kind of stopped because it was all still big classes and multi choice exams. And I've always been like, an okay test taker, but, um, it was a lot of memorization and things like that. And I did terribly in chemistry, um, so bad, but grad school, I was worried going in.

I mean, I was stoked that I even got it because I had a terrible GPA in undergrad. And once I got in, I was like, okay, like, I'm gonna have to work really hard to do well in this, especially because I was full time student and full time working. And, um, [00:33:00] I. Was pleasantly surprised because I have always been a stronger writer, like my creative writing teacher from high school was like, I cannot believe that you ended up going into science and betrayed us all.

Like, she's like, I just, she's like, I thought you were going to go be a writer or something. And my mom always told me my mom's a journalist. She was like, absolutely do not go into journalism. Like, she's like, I will let you go into any career with that. Please. So I was had an angel and a devil on my shoulder.

Right? yeah. But, yeah, I've always enjoyed writing and with grad school, that was the crazy thing. I didn't have, I think I had one exam the entire time I was in grad school.

AJ Nash: Oh, wow.

Gabrielle Hempel: The rest was papers and some people, for some people, that's an absolute nightmare. Like there were some people I talked to and they were like, absolutely not.

That sounds like my worst nightmare. But for me, I really liked it. It sucked at times because like, yeah, I had a midterm paper that was worth 35 percent of my grade and then a final paper that was worth like 65 percent of my grade. And that was my whole grade. Um,

AJ Nash: [00:34:00] Oh,

Gabrielle Hempel: so it was make or break, uh, for sure, but I don't know.

I really liked it and it made me. 1, it may be actually better as far as, uh, not procrastinating

AJ Nash: Oh, I didn't get better in grad school for that. I procrastinated. I, I you're better than I am. occurred to me like we didn't have tests either. I didn't even think about it. He just said that it was all group projects and papers and a

Gabrielle Hempel: presentations and papers.

AJ Nash: Yeah, we paper due every couple of weeks and my thing was like, all right, Saturday, I just locked myself in the office until it was done.

Like I didn't, I didn't prep, I didn't do outlines, I didn't, Saturday I'd get down in the morning, I'd be like, all right, when I leave the office, the paper's done. I never got better at procrastination somehow.

Gabrielle Hempel: I, I did, and I don't know, I don't really know because I was a horrible procrastinator all through, like, undergrad and stuff like that. And I don't know, there was, like, I found myself in grad school just. So. I don't know if it was because I knew I was paying a lot more money for it. And like, I was like, [00:35:00] I'm going to make this worth my time or what?

But like, um, I found myself getting things in like a week or two before due date and I was like, dang, like I'm, I'm killing it. But I also, I got really lucky because my company is super supportive. Like my boss legit, I started like at the beginning of my last semester of grad school and I was still full time.

And my boss was like, Hey. If you don't have anything going on at work, feel free to work on school stuff. Um, and I, yeah, shout out to Peter. He is the best boss ever. But, um, I don't know if he'll watch this or not, but he, uh, Yeah, company is super supportive. They were like, yeah, get your school work done.

Like, as long as you're getting your work done, like, All good. So, that was super helpful because, obviously, Full time school, full time work. Was rough, especially after moving out of New York for my last semester, because I had finished everything except for, like, my online portion, uh, my classes were all at 6 a.

m. So,

AJ Nash: Oh,

Gabrielle Hempel: was, was. [00:36:00] So, uh, yeah, but it made me so like, a much better writer because I felt like my writing was under higher scrutiny because it was worth most of my grade. Um, and I had 1. 1 professor, and it annoyed me at the time, but looking back, I'm very grateful and I'm sure you'll appreciate this being FBI.

AJ Nash: Yep. Okay.

Gabrielle Hempel: Thanks for spring. It's She instead of creating a length requirement that was it has to be this many pages long It was it has to be under one page You have to fit all your info Into this one page and if you went over didn't read it So there was like my first one I went like a couple sentences over and she was like, sorry Didn't read the second page you left out like x amount so you're only getting like I got a c and I was like Like, I was so mad, but over the semester, she, I mean, she held fast to that.

Right? And like, she would sit down and review with us. Like, this is how you make this more concise and still [00:37:00] get the point across and stuff like that. So, at the end of the semester, I realized, oh, like, I can write a 1 page intelligence report and like. Handed off, and it's got everything it needs in it.

And that's the reality. That's such a transferable skill, not only in intelligence, but in the corporate world, too, because most executives, if you're writing something out for him, they'll be like, okay, if it's more than a page, I'm not reading that shit. So. Yeah,

AJ Nash: yeah. That's a really good one. And it's interesting, uh, because I've, I've run it at an Intel obviously as well. Like, you know, we write giant. Papers a lot of times, but also the need for just that quick thing, right? You know, give me, know, we talk about bluff bottom line up front, you know, tell me what need to know You know, I've talked about listening, you know If i've got 30 seconds to ride up the elevator with the boss I gotta tell them everything in this or this is all they're gonna read Like I said, a lot of people don't read the second page.

I know one job. I remember we had but it was impossible So like everything was six point font because so we stayed with one page, you read any but we had to because we had to get all the stuff on but You know, it's, uh, yeah, it's a huge skill to have. And like you said, executives don't have time.

They won't read page after page after [00:38:00] page. And so there is something to be said for, you know, for brevity, you know, for impact, for finding a way to make sure you get everything you're in, in a reasonable amount of space and, and readable. Listen, six point fonts, not reasonable. That was a ridiculous job I had, but you know, know if you were allowed to cut the font down at all.

I certainly have cheated a little on fonts here and there, but if it gets under, like. 10, it gets tough. And at my age, it gets under eight. It's, you know, it's impossible essentially to read. So, um, no, it's, uh, it's interesting that that was a piece that transferred over. Right. I bet it does all the time still.

And, and yeah, emails. I mean, ever seen those emails where people write, it's just a book. You're like,

Gabrielle Hempel: oh, my God.

AJ Nash: I don't have time. Like whatever this is, can't be that important. You know, I'm just

Gabrielle Hempel: it's the worst and I have definitely been criticized for being almost overly brief before, but I'm like, nobody wants to read my paragraphs of emails. Right? Like, I will state what I need in a sentence and. That's that and you feel like it comes off in it, know I had a lot of exclamation points, right?

Like I don't know Like i'm like hi, how's it [00:39:00] going? Here's what I want from you. Okay. Thanks. Bye

AJ Nash: See ya emoji. Smiley. Goodbye. I've been known to write, I actually write a lot of my emails. Uh, well, I, I'm known for writing bullets. I do a lot of things with bullets. It's a lot of like a bullet, sub bullets, a bullet, three sub bullets. Or I'll say like. You know, something that I think probably deserves an explanation, but you may not want the explanation.

So here's the thing, and then I'll actually have like, you know, background and all this stuff. Like, if you want to know the reason here's the long part, because I couldn't make it shorter. If you just don't care about the reason, here's the short part, right? I find myself writing emails a lot of times, like we write Intel, and then you can choose how much you want to read of it.

But here's the stuff you need to know. Here's, you know, and I try to. Be polite while you're doing that, which can be tough with bullets sometimes. But yeah, I find that that's, you know, way to communicate quickly and read the bullets you care about, you know, this is what we're trying to get to.

This is a lot of time. I like to write bluff, write in my emails, like bluff. I've gotten titles put right in the title, the email, like actionable or not, like just tell them upfront, do I need something or do I not, you know, if it's actionable, like, you know, actionable and deadline right in the title before I even [00:40:00] say what the thing is, they know it's a thing they need to open and otherwise it's like, I read it when you get to it.

Like it's just informational. So

Gabrielle Hempel: I need to start doing that. The bluff thing is that was like, the cornerstone of my grad program. It was really interesting. Um, a lot of my professors were X intelligence community. Um, and that was, like, I think 1 of the 1st things that and I'm Phil. I don't know if you do.

AJ Nash: I'm very

Gabrielle Hempel: bluff and time. So

AJ Nash: just when I was doing it.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, now they've added fill, but, um, yeah, but no, those 2 things were, like, the 2 things that if you learn anything in this grad program, it's that and yeah, I need to start just starting emails with bluff. Like, hey. Tldr, right?

AJ Nash: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You know, you gotta let people know what bluff is. I have learned that too. Um, you know, I tell, tell people what BLUF means and then once they know it, they're fine. But yeah, a lot of my emails are just like, here's the bluff. And if you want the details, here's the details. And if you don't just,

Gabrielle Hempel: Like. Yeah.

AJ Nash: Go off of this.

It works. So, all right, we're, Elizabeth, we're running a little behind. It's fine. I don't really worry about [00:41:00] time, but I do want to make sure we get through everything we said we wanted to cover. So we got the third official question. Obviously we've had like 12 in here probably, but the third official question from this one was, you know, listen, you've got all this going on, right?

So you got all the education you've, you've used, uh, you know, what is it? Spite is fuel, right? And then you're proving a bunch of people wrong and you're doing amazing stuff. And anybody who follows you on social knows that by the way. Um, But with all that you're doing and you have a personal life and I'm not here to expose your personal life other than to say you're not a lonely person, like you're not all alone, just focused on cyber 22 hours a day.

Like you have family, you have a personal life, you have a social life, you have multiple social media channels that you're, you know, keeping up and hundreds of thousands of people, you know, know you. So you got all that going on. How, like, do you have any tips on like this mythical work life balance or do you just not sleep?

Like, is that, is that the trick is that you're just up all the time? Cause there's a lot that's going on in your life.

Gabrielle Hempel: I'm a vampire.

AJ Nash: Well, that's it. That's it. That's it then. God, how

Gabrielle Hempel: That's it that's the trick. No, um. [00:42:00] I struggled a lot with work life balance, especially. I think using spiders fuel, um. And, like, I had, like, a weird situation where I got into cyber security and I was, like, super, I had broken up with that ex, like, right around the time I got my first job in cyber security.

And I went from, like, living with the dude to, like. Moving home for a while and stuff like that, and I was just like, okay, time to regroup. So I was literally working 24 7 and I was working for a consulting firm at that point. And, um, just 1 of those were, like, your boss calls you and it's like, oh. It's 2 a.

m, but I need you to do this and you do it right and you work crazy hours and I Had a hard time saying no to people that was so hard to me like I got to be like 26 27. I was like I am burnt out like I've been working in the field for a couple years and I feel kind of burnt out like that's bad Yeah

AJ Nash: Yeah. 26, 27. Like how sad is that to [00:43:00] be talking about burnout? It's, it's real. Like it happens. I know a lot of people, but how sad is that at such a young age to be like, I just can't anymore. I'm just burnt. Like what a unhealthy life to be Right. I mean, nobody tried to stab you at least in that job.

So it's an improvement, but like, so, so how did you handle that? Like, did you learn how to say no? Like how did that work?

Gabrielle Hempel: I did I finally, you know, I worked for a couple I got really lucky and that I, like, the last few companies I've worked for have been. Really big on work life balance and I know a lot of companies say that, but. These companies were actually, like, get offline and go do something with your life. That's not work and, like, I just the bosses I had at those places were very much like, you need to have a life, like, sign off.

And. Yeah, it was, I was really lucky because I can definitely see myself continuing down the burnout path if I hadn't had that kind of management. So that's a really important. You know, type of leader to have in your organization and, uh, I just got to the point where I realized I was [00:44:00] overextended. And I think did, like, a little bit of a reset to, um.

Like, suddenly, I didn't have to travel as much and I didn't have to be all these places and I was able to just kind of. Reset and, like, rezone and I, while it was uncomfortable at first, I got a lot less afraid of saying no, um. There are times, especially with social media, things like that, people reach out all the time and they're like, hey, can we talk about how you got in the industry?

Or hey, can we do XYZ? And I feel like the worst person ever. Like, I used to be like, yeah, yeah. And then I would have just like, back to back calls with all these people that weren't even work related. So it was like, I replaced my work burnout with like, social burnout.

AJ Nash: Yeah,

Gabrielle Hempel: And yeah, uh,

AJ Nash: and yet you said, you said yes to me when I reached out and wanted to do this. Like

Gabrielle Hempel: I did.

AJ Nash: off. So I'm,

Gabrielle Hempel: because I'm done with school and I don't know do with my now.

AJ Nash: Well, it's a good thing I didn't ask you why you were still in grad school. That sounds like I would've a no back then. So you seemed pretty [00:45:00] 

Gabrielle Hempel: many things in school because I was just like, I, I can't like, between like. Work and school, like, I just don't have the mental bandwidth. Um, but now that I'm not in school, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I have so much time. Like, I've been reading books and stuff. It's great. Uh, so yeah. Uh, yeah.

As you can see, I hate books. So.

AJ Nash: right. Yeah. The giant just for show. It's not real. It's a fake background. I'm aware. Like

Gabrielle Hempel: They're all fake.

AJ Nash: an empty warehouse

Gabrielle Hempel: all shells. Um,

AJ Nash: They all hide things. They're all just hollow that hide stuff.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, I just, I got used to saying no.

AJ Nash: and you never got fired, like, nobody just fired you over it, right? Like, isn't that the big fear is you're gonna say no and somebody's like, Hey, you don't work here anymore. Like, and you got to get past that.

Gabrielle Hempel: I mean, if it's, if it's something directly related to your job, like, yeah, you should probably do it. But, like, it's definitely a companies. I've had people, like, from other departments, like, hey, can you do X, Y, Z? And most of the time? Yes, I would love to, but there are times that it just [00:46:00] does not fit or it's like, something completely out of my wheelhouse and you I've learned like, that 1st time I was like, when I said, no, I was like, oh, my God, this is it.

Like, they're going to can me. I. And worthless and then, like,

AJ Nash: hmm.

Gabrielle Hempel: the world kept turning, right? Like, and I was just like, oh, okay. Uh, that person wasn't mad at me either. That's the other thing. Like, I hate making people mad. So, like, I was like, are you mad at me? And they're like, no, like, I was Like, I don't care.

Like,

AJ Nash: I wasn't personal for them.

Gabrielle Hempel: So, once you realize that it's not personal to everyone and that saying no is not going to get you instantly fired, if it does your. Dodging a bullet, honestly, because, like, if a company is going to fire you for being like, nah, I'm trying to focus on my day to day job, then, like, I don't know, not a, not a company you want to work for.

But, uh, yeah, I don't know. I just, I got a lot better at saying no, managing time, not being afraid to [00:47:00] reschedule, stuff like that. Just and allowing myself time. Like, there are days when I'm just like, oh, I'm not going to sit on my phone. I'll sit and read a book or, you Kind of unplug from things and really trying to get that balance of, uh. Not constantly being connected. That's been the best thing actually about moving on here is like, once you get up to the mountains, there's no cell signal. So, like,

AJ Nash: So you're forced to

Gabrielle Hempel: you can't reach me. You can't reach me.

AJ Nash: That's good. I, I, maybe I gotta work on that because I'm always connected, unfortunately, but funny, you know, you talked about like, you know, the ability to say no and the power that comes with that. And it's that learning experience. Like you said, it's not personal for everybody. Right. And, you know, I.

I hate to say this. I'm old enough now. I guess I have to like, my dad was right about a few things. Nobody thinks their parents are right about anything.

Gabrielle Hempel: Oh, my

AJ Nash: uh, and then at some point you go, God, they're smarter than I thought. And it was things like that, you know, the ability to just say no and to realize like the world will keep turning.

You're [00:48:00] not, you're not the only person who can do the thing. And you you gotta learn how to draw boundaries. I was, I'm lousy at, I'm still lousy. I say, I say yes to a lot more things than I don't. And, uh, but it's, it is interesting when you get to an age where you just go, you know what? I'm just gonna say no, I know it's the right answer and then see what the consequences are.

And then there's no concert and you go, well, I'm allowed to say like, we're allowed to do this. Like, it's okay. We're actually expected to at some point, uh, to say no to things and not waste our time on things that aren't part of our, like I said, your primary job, or they're just going to burn up your energy.

So you have nothing left for your primary job, you know? And it was, it was good to hear you talking about, you know, good leadership, right? That actually believes every place, every company never worked at a company yet and said, we don't care about. Like work life balance. Nobody says that to you, but a lot of them make it clear once you get there.

And, uh, and it was good to hear that, you know, you talked about that. I've, I've done the same thing, but I've been, I've been lucky enough to be on teams where again, leaders act that way. I've been in positions where I've been able to, I've told people, listen, if you're on PTO and I keep seeing you on Slack, like I'm going to tell it to [00:49:00] shut you off, like if you're not going to actually take the time off and we either need to not charge you the PTO or we need to shut you off.

So you actually take time. Please don't do this. I've. I know some workaholics. I've just kind of made deals to say, Hey, how about just once a day? You check email, nothing more. Like, can I get you to that? Because I'll take them, you know, I get some people don't want to be gone a week and they come back into the thousand emails and overwhelms them.

But, you know, trying to help people that work life balance, man. Um, it's nice. It sounds like you figured it out at least to a point, right?

Gabrielle Hempel: Getting there. It's a work progress.

AJ Nash: No, isn't it always right. All right, cool. So listen, we got the three like big questions that we're going to talk about today are knocked out, but with every guest, I got one bonus question and so you're no different.

You don't get out and get off the hook without it either. You know, name of the show is unspoken security. So with that in mind, tell me something you never told anyone before. Something that's, you know, an unspoken. Uh, here it comes.

Gabrielle Hempel: Should have done, should have done some, uh, [00:50:00] prophylactic changing before this, but, uh,

AJ Nash: Here it comes.

Gabrielle Hempel: I need to hurry up and do that afterwards. Um, I, this is so horrible as a security person and I'm sure I'm going to be burned at the stake by fellow people in security, but I have used the same password on like I don't know, 85, 90 percent of my account since I was like 12.

Like, legit, it is the same password. If it lets me, I will use the same password that I've been using since I was like 12 and I made my first like AIM account, right? Like, so, uh,

AJ Nash: Oh, no, so despite all of us telling everybody about password security and specifically the risk of password reuse, you've got one password you've been using since you were 12, which is not like yesterday, right? You're not old, but that's well, you just had a birthday, right? So you're held

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, 32, so

AJ Nash: 32. So just 20 years that you've been using one password for [00:51:00] like 85 percent of all of your accounts, which means it can't be that complicated because it's back at a time when complicated passwords weren't even required.

So it's not like 18 characters and the different things. Not that I'm asking you to

Gabrielle Hempel: Well, I mean, it's kind of iterations of that same password, I guess, like, if needs numbers and stuff, text numbers on it, like, you know,

AJ Nash: Yeah. Yeah. I got Sorry. So now I'm sure you've read this too. So it's a recent, you know, reporting has come out on the subject, right? We talk about these complicated passwords. I'm sure it'll make you feel better or anybody who thinks Gab's wrong. Maybe it'll make you guys feel better to know they've kind of been changing the guidance thing.

Listen, if the password is working, if it's good and hasn't been cracked, changing passwords a lot is actually a bad idea because you can't keep up with it. So that means you end up writing it down somewhere. If it's working and it hasn't been cracked, leave it alone. But I have to assume if you've been using the same password for 20 years on a lot of different sites, at least one of those sites has probably been compromised over those 20 years, which means all of your accounts theoretically are at risk, which means I'm sure by the time [00:52:00] this airs, you will have changed all your passwords now.

you know, people know you, going to be out 

Gabrielle Hempel: I think we talked about this at one point, like, most of my really important accounts I have, like, physical QFA on, so.

AJ Nash: Well, that's huge. And let's, you know, full disclosure, I'm not. Different. Like again, I'm a, I'm an Intel guy. I'm a security guy. We talk about all the time. I have a, a couple of passwords and like I said, iterations that I've been using on most accounts for a very long time. But I have multi-factor authentication on almost everything.

So the first line password isn't really that big of a deal. Uh, it gets me in and it gets me to mfa, which is what I really care about. I have over the years gotten much more complicated and, you know, the most important passwords, like obviously financials and the really big ones. Those are super with, you know, two FAs and all that kind of stuff thrown on top of them.

But I'm no different than you. There's a bunch of my accounts have the same password and it's the same password I've had for 15, 20 years because. Why not? You know, it hasn't been hit. [00:53:00] And so I love that you said that. I don't know why I confess the same thing. Now people are going to come after me so much change, but you find damn passwords now too.

Um, but I think it's great cause I'm sure people are going to be dictionary attacking us now as soon as this goes live. Uh, that's, I've some

Gabrielle Hempel: There's a, you'll have to let me know before it comes to life, so

AJ Nash: Yeah. Yeah. You'll get a heads before this goes out. We're going to get dictionary attack. I'm telling you about it. So if, if, if this goes out and then suddenly gab smash on Instagram is nothing but kitten photos and gas smash on Twitter

Gabrielle Hempel: know, that still be me.

AJ Nash: Uh, well, yeah, the kittens might sue you, I guess.

If, if a Gabsmash on Twitter is raving lunatic talking about, know, how, she's moved Mars or something, you're gonna know that, that she's been And this is why, cause, cause we're experts who don't do a good job with our passwords, apparently.

Gabrielle Hempel: I find that's a trend, though, kind of like, in cybersecurity, like, the more longer someone's been in the industry, like, the more they don't care about a lot of things.

AJ Nash: Yeah, that's, I think that's true. I think that's probably an [00:54:00] unspoken truth too. We get kind of jaded. Um, you know, I, I'm sorry to say, you know, Breach has come up and like, you know, Somebody tells me, I'm like, Oh yeah, I mean, either a, I knew about it and yep. Because again, we follow the news or whatever, or B I'm just like, yeah, it makes sense.

I mean, breaches happen all the time. You know, it's yep. That's commonplace. Uh, eventually I investigated, obviously, you know, I have to speak about it or have to work with somebody to help them with it. And it's frustrating because it's a lot of times the exact same things over and over again. It's hard sometimes to stay sharp and focused in this industry.

When you're just like, uh, how many times do I have to tell you passwords? and 2FA. How many times do I have to tell you not to click on that link? Um, so yeah, it wears us down sometimes, man. So not surprising a lot of us, you know, are making some bad choices. But like you said, you use physical tokens. I, you know, I got 2FA and I got a physical around here someplace too.

So, you know, we're better than it sounds, I guess, at least. You don't have like bank account on just this one goofy password from 20 years ago, I'm sure. Not

Gabrielle Hempel: No, no, I've [00:55:00] luckily switched up like banks and some stuff to you, so. Hello.

AJ Nash: frankly.

Uh, but also you're unique in your own way. Like, you know, the, the ability to, to. Translate all these different things you talked about, like, you know, working in the car, you know, car repairs, especially Volkswagen of all places, uh, you know, and almost getting stabbed and then all you do with education.

It's a, I mean, it's very cool story, right? Your, your story is unique, right? Like I said, you're a unicorn. So I mentioned socials, like if anybody want to keep up with what you're up to, do you want to plug like where they can follow you or where they can reach out to you or just want to tell them, no, we don't want to talk about that.

Gabrielle Hempel: Yeah, it depends on the kind of content you want. Uh, like, LinkedIn is where, like, a lot of my work people are. So I post just kind of serious stuff about cyber security. You want like cyber security shit posts, [00:56:00] Twitter is your place. Um, and Instagram. They're all like the same gobsmacked except LinkedIn's under my full name, Gabrielle Hempel.

But, uh, Instagram is mostly just either pictures of like food or dogs. So.

AJ Nash: Oh man, don't have Insta account, but maybe I need one now because I like food and I like dogs. As long as it's not like you're eating dogs, I'd prefer not to see that, but

Gabrielle Hempel: Does dog have one?

AJ Nash: Does my dog have it? No, you know, my dog doesn't. I, um, I actually don't have Instagram. I don't have Facebook.

I, my last dog does still have a Facebook account. That's just the dummy account I use for, for research purposes though.

Gabrielle Hempel: Hell yeah, it's all good.

AJ Nash: cause they'll probably kick that

Gabrielle Hempel: Everyone will friend a dog. If a dog friend requested me, I would be like, absolutely, this dog wants to be my friend. Like, oh my I feel honored. That is the brilliant account ever. I'm gonna go make an account for all my, for my dog, uh,

AJ Nash: It works. surprisingly well. And if, if I, you know, if I poke into somebody's account, they don't make me think so [00:57:00] suspiciously. I don't go tracking down who that is. So my old dog has, has an account still, but I don't, but I know people Instagram. So yeah,

Gabrielle Hempel: I have Facebook, but Facebook I strictly keep for like family and like people. Like my close friends and stuff. It's just I have enough social media That's like open and available to anyone that like i'm like facebook's like my family place

AJ Nash: Yeah. It's your own personal little safe space. Yeah. I've got LinkedIn and Twitter is about all I use right now. So, all right, cool. Listen, yeah. Thanks again. Uh, really appreciate you taking the time to come on, uh, and tell your story and share it. It's been a great time. Uh, I'll probably have you come back again at some point.

If you, if you have more time, love to talk to you more about it. Hear more about, you know, what's going on with you as we go forward. Uh, but until then, you know, this is, it's been great having you on Unspoken Security. Can't thank you enough for it. Uh, you know, Snow will be there soon. Enjoy it. Um, and, uh, you know, we'll talk again soon for everybody listening.

Uh, hope you enjoyed this episode, you know, feel free to, to. I don't know where the feedback is going to go. I haven't figured this out yet, but wherever that is, feel free to give us great feedback, you know, download this, tell your [00:58:00] friends and neighbors and everything, uh, cause we want to keep having really cool, uh, people like Dab on and tell us some awesome stories.

So, uh, until next time, uh, that's all we've got for today for unspoken security. I'm Ajay Nash. And thanks again, Gab, for being here and we'll talk to you guys soon.

Gabrielle Hempel: Thank you.

AJ Nash: Cheers.