What is DEF CON Hotline?

DEF CON is more than just a hacking conference—it’s a community. In this episode, host AJ Nash sits down with Ada Zebra, a longtime goon and leader behind DEF CON Hotline, a resource dedicated to handling security incidents, harassment reports, and crisis situations at the event. Ada shares her journey from a first-time attendee to a key figure in DEF CON’s security efforts, shedding light on the history and evolution of the hotline.

She discusses how the hotline was born out of necessity after an incident in 2017, when leadership realized DEF CON needed a dedicated space for attendees to report issues safely. Since its launch in 2018, the hotline has grown every year, bringing in highly trained volunteers to assist in complex situations ranging from restraining orders to personal safety concerns.

AJ and Ada also explore the hotline’s relationship with DEF CON’s security team, how volunteers are selected and trained, and why fostering an inclusive environment matters in the hacker community. If you’ve ever wondered what happens behind the scenes at one of the world’s largest hacker gatherings, this episode offers an inside look at the challenges, responsibilities, and impact of the DEF CON Hotline.

Transcript

What is DEF CON Hotline?

Ada Zebra: [00:00:00] I made my first. Defcon friend by going to hacker jeopardy. And on the way, picking up a bottle of wine in just like a convenience store or something. And a corkscrew, I know I had the corkscrew because I still have it.  Um, and sitting at hacker jeopardy. And, uh, person in front of me, a couple of rows in front of me, also has a bottle of wine. And then she realizes she doesn't have a corkscrew. And that's how we became best friends.

AJ Nash: [00:01:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Unspoken Security. I'm your host, AJ Nash. I spent 19 years in the intelligence community, mostly at NSA, and I've been building and maturing intelligence programs in the private sector for about nine years now. I'm passionate about intelligence, security, public speaking, mentoring, and teaching.

I also have a master's degree in organizational leadership from Gonzaga University, Go Zags, and continue to be deeply committed to servant leadership. Now, this podcast brings all of these elements together. With some incredible guests that have authentic unfiltered conversations on a wide range of challenging topics.

It's not your typical polished podcast. My dog makes occasional appearances and I got to warn y'all, there's a very good chance there are going to be two very loud dogs in the not too distant future on the show. Maybe we'll edit it out, but I've got one at the vet on the way home. And. I [00:02:00] have no idea what's going to happen when she gets here.

So, but that happens. People argue, we debate, uh, we swear on here. I certainly do. Uh, that's all okay. Uh, you know, I want you to think of this podcast as a conversation. It's much like a lot of conversations you might overhear at a bar after a long day at one of the larger cybersecurity conferences. These are those conversations that we usually have when nobody's listening.

Now, today I'm joined by a good friend of mine, Ada Zebra. Now, before you ask yourself, that's not her legal name, that's her DEF CON goon handle, uh, but it's what everybody calls her. It's what everybody knows her as, including me. Uh, Ada's background is primarily in data science. Uh, she's got nearly a decade of experience to go along with her master's in computer science and a PhD in experimental psychology.

With a focus on behavioral psychology and quantitative statistics, basically it is just another friend and guest of mine who's way smarter than I am. Uh, so in, in addition to all those credentials though, it is also one of the leaders of DEF CON. Uh, and DEF CON, as a lot of people probably know, it's a big part of what is affectionately known as Hacker Summer Camp every year in August in Las Vegas.

Cause where else would you like to be in August, but Las Vegas. Uh, but this is what we're going to talk about today, uh, is we're going to [00:03:00] dig into the DEF CON. Uh, component of her career in her life and what we could talk about there. Uh, because today's topic is actually what is DEF CON hotline, which in itself is, is a subset of DEF CON, kind of an unknown piece, right?

So that's what I want to get into. Uh, Ada, I've already spent like 28 minutes. It feels like on this intro. So let's talk first. Did I miss anything in your introduction and any or in your credentials that you want to catch up on before we dig into the topic?

Ada: Hello, everyone. Good. nothing, nothing in particular in there.

AJ: All right, cool. Well, good, let's dig in then. So again, the question for the show is what is DEF CON hotline? So before we specifically the hotline, let's talk about DEF CON though. Tell me about your journey with DEF CON. How long have you been with DEF CON? How long has DEF CON been around? How long have you been with DEF CON?

How did you get into it? You know, you're one of the leaders at this point. You didn't start that way on day one, I imagine. So let's talk a little bit about that. Like, how did, how was your journey been with DEF CON?

Ada: Okay, I mean, how long has Defcon been? The problem is the years of Defcon don't coincide with

AJ: The number of DEF CONs?

Ada: Right? [00:04:00] So, like, it's. We're doing Defcon 33 this year, which means we've been around for 33 years. Right? Even the ones that don't count count,

AJ: Right.

Ada: when it's been canceled, it's not been canceled. Uh,

AJ: That's the annual joke, right? DEF CON's canceled every year. We've been saying that forever. And then finally there was a year where it sort

Ada: Yeah, finally it was real.

AJ: I guess 1993 is what the internet, the internet will tell me 1993 was the first DEF CON.

Ada: uh, I didn't join it until DEFCON 18,

AJ: Okay,

Ada: which is 2009, 2010, sometime there

AJ: okay, still a lot of DEF CONs. Yeah, still a

Ada: been a while. Uh, and I, you know, I go the reason a lot of people go, which is, you know, someone who's like, you should come with, and you're like, I guess so. Um, and at the time, like, I was just doing psychology. I wasn't computer science yet.

Um, I, I have [00:05:00] this, uh, from way back when I have this thing I used to tell at the story I used to tell when I go into job interviews because I go, you have background in psychology and why are you here? Right? Um, which is, uh, I, when I first got into college, they ask you, what do you want to do? Yeah, you can choose one thing to do.

What is your, what are you going to do? And I'm like, I like psychology and I like computers and they're like, pick one.

AJ: not very good at instructions, I guess. One thing, here's two. Okay, that's a good

Ada: And I thought to myself, I don't want to be stuck in a cubicle my whole life.

AJ: Right,

Ada: my thought.

AJ: right. How's that working out?

Ada: And so I went to psychology instead. Um, but. At that time, when I was first going to DEF CON, that was the only thing I, like, people are like, oh, just come along.

It'll be fine. Right. And I think I went to like, some talks on social engineering and I'm like, I'm a terrible liar. This is not where I belong. There was one guy who was there doing something about [00:06:00] social networks and and how. Um, I don't even remember it's been so long because I remember talking about, like, Facebook and security on Facebook and then, like, how scammers are using Facebook in different ways.

I thought that was really neat. And so I, um, I was like. This was a fun time. Sure, I'll come back again next year. And then I just kept coming back and back and back again. Um, and it wasn't until Oh, I couldn't tell you which DEF CON. Uh, 25 maybe? I think between the two, I watched

AJ: 15, just for clarification, DEFCON 15 was in 2010. I'm, I get Google, I have Google over me, so I have the advantage of being able to look these things up, because I don't have a memory, I wouldn't know either. It was, it was, uh, late July, early August of 2010 would be DEFCON, uh, 18. So that gives you a landmark.

Ada: No, because I've been, I've been working for DEF CON for 10 years now. So whatever was 10 years [00:07:00] ago between those two DEF CONs,

AJ: enough.

Ada: um, I, uh, was watching a YouTube live event that Tara Wheeler put on in which she had various DEF CON people on. One of which was CJ.

AJ: Now, was this at the Rio, or was this at Bally's? DEFCON 22 in

Ada: It was a YouTube live event. So I, like my first DEF CON, I think was Rio.

AJ: 2014 was at Rio, that's why I asked. As was 21.

Ada: But since it's a YouTube live event, it's after DEF CON,

AJ: Oh, so it doesn't matter then. Just ignore what I'm saying then. Go on with your story. Shut up, AJ. Go on with your story.

Ada: and CJ says that they need more women to be goons

AJ: Now, for those who don't know, who's, who's CJ? For those who don't know. I'm gonna

Ada: Uh, CJ is in charge of the SOC at [00:08:00] DEF CON. SOC being not what SOC is, right? Like, SOC in Uh, and a company is entirely different because this is like physical security people, right?

Um, at DEF CON and. He says he needs more goons, and I sit, and I type into the chat, literally like sitting there on my computer, like, listening, like, I do that job, and he says, email me at this address, and I was like, alright, and that's how I became a goon. Like, the weirdest way, right? Most people, they know somebody, and that person introduces them to somebody, and that's how they become a goon.

That is not how it worked for me.

AJ: Yeah. Usually it's like the mafia, like you have to be sponsored in some has to know somebody that the vouch for you and you have to pass a bunch of, you know, whatever, you know, tests of some sort of social tests to get through the door and not your case. That was just a virtual event and CJ and you pinged him and he's like, all right, good.

You're in

Ada: it was in live chat. It wasn't even pinging him. It was [00:09:00] just like, I do that job. It was, yeah, it was the weirdest way to get in. But, uh, I did my noon year, your first year of gooning. You are a new goon. You are a noon. Um, that next year. And then I continued to goon after that just because. Like the community is really fun.

Like community at DEF CON is great. And then the community of goons is just makes you feel like you belong. I also love that job because It helped me with some ability to be able to feel like more confident than usual because I was this kind of more on the shy side person and it gives you like The permission just talk to random strangers because you have a red shirt on.

Right?

AJ: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Well, yeah, it's a role, right? It's a responsible way for those who don't know, like goons, goons [00:10:00] run DEF CON, right? And there, if you've never been to DEF CON, if you ever go, just look for something in a red shirt and more often than not, it's going to be a goon. Um, and goon is an affectionate term.

Uh, it may be able to tell us where it comes from. I don't know, but, um, but folks who work DEF CON are goons and they can be

Ada: I think I think a part of it is that, like, the people who used to be the job they used to do back in the day back, you know, back the AP. The Lexus Park, um, was like keeping hackers from getting their computers stolen by random grifters, um, keeping people from having giant fistfights. Uh, when they were drunk, patching people up when they get, when they thought something was going to be funny and instead ended up with a knife in their hand.

Like, it was crazy.

AJ: it's like a pirate party.

Ada: This was like the, you know, things in [00:11:00] Vegas, stay in Vegas kind of party, um, is a very different conference

AJ: Right.

Ada: that it is now.

AJ: And as I

Ada: part of the reason why they were goons is because they're such big guys. First off, like back then they had to be really big guys so that they could. sure that they were keeping people safe.

AJ: you're regulate. Well, I remember like years, I don't remember my first DEF CON. Um, uh, it was not as far back. I don't think as you went, uh, but it might be in the neighborhood. I didn't go to everyone since then, unfortunately, but, um. But it was also sort of like, as I recall, it was like a mixture. It was a lot of big dudes, as you said, um, sort of bouncer esque type, but also it felt like a little like Dick's last resort.

If anybody's ever been to that restaurant, like goons messed with everybody who was there, like they would give you, if you ask

Ada: want a table?

AJ: Yeah. If you ask for help with the information table, it's a good chance. You're gonna be singing your Alma mater or I'm a little teacup or something. Or they're not going to tell you where the fuck to go.

Uh, and, and that was part of the. You know, it was a thing, right? You just knew you didn't know until you knew, right? If you're new and it was your first year showing up, you'd be like, what the hell is going on? I'm not singing. I'm a little tea. I just want to know where to go, [00:12:00] man. And then you realize it's like, that's the game.

Right. And then sometimes that shit gets out of control because that's what happens to people in general. But it was, you know, people played into it. But, uh, but at the same time, this was, you know, it was always been community and, and like you said, it was, it was fun. So, um, so to have the opportunity to be part of the DEF CON community in and of itself.

I find it to be pretty cool. Like you get to learn new things. You meet new people. I mean, if you ever want to go, if you guys are going to be in Vegas, anytime anybody listening or watching, um, if you're somebody who goes to black hat and never goes to Defcon, uh, definitely hang around at least once. Uh, even if it's just for the people watching like Defcon is a show, man.

Uh, I've never seen two people with inflatable dinosaur outfits, go sumo wrestling in the, in the hallway before at Vegas until Defcon, um, there's all. There's a whole furry con that's an under, you know, a subculture, uh, and they have some amazing costumes. But at the same time, if you've ever sat in a lecture with somebody seriously considering what's going on while wearing a Fox costume, it's a different experience.

Ada: I made my first. Defcon friend by going to hacker jeopardy. [00:13:00] And on the way, picking up a bottle of wine in just like a convenience store or something. And a corkscrew, and I know I had the corkscrew because I still have it. Um, and sitting at hacker jeopardy. And, uh, person in front of me, a couple of rows in front of me, also has a bottle of wine. And then she realizes she doesn't have a corkscrew. And that's how we became best friends.

AJ: And she didn't have a way to hack her way into that, huh? She actually needed a corkscrew. She wasn't coming up with some, some formula to hack into it. They've just the right amount of heat and whatever, and it would pop on its own. No, just went for the

Ada: Nope, that's just how, that's how we became best friends. I had the corkscrew.

AJ: That's awesome. And that, and that happens, right? People make amazing friends, uh, you know, just going to these events. It could be anything. I've seen it. I've seen it happen over technology. I've seen over shared pieces. Like you're talking about, I've seen it over somebody who's just like amazing. Right.

They've done a

Ada: We've never lived in the same town, and, but we used to talk on [00:14:00] the internet all the time, and like, I helped her change jobs because she hated her job, and then like, she was trying to figure out what to do with her love life, and I was just there with her the whole time, but now she's like happily married with two kids, and

AJ: That's awesome.

Ada: you know, just the people you meet in Vegas, but stay your friends after Vegas.

I don't know.

AJ: she's happily married with two kids. There's a chance she's had court. Corkscrews and more bottles of wine along the way too. So, uh, it's tends to come hand in hand, I think, uh, for, for most people at some point, if not the marriage, certainly kids will do that for you. Um, ask anybody Defcon, by the

Ada: hung out,

we hung out in DC once. I think that was the only time we ever hung out outside of DEF CON. It's because she lived in the area at the time. And I was like, I'm going to be there for another conference. Uh, you want to hang out and show me around DC. And that was the whole thing.

AJ: Uh, it's just a little bit more of [00:15:00] the norm, but so, uh, So you, you, you met CJ through a livestream event chatted, and he was like, yeah, let's do this.

And then so that gets you in and you know, you've been going, now you're, now you're at goon. But now, you know, fast forward, you're, you're 10 years down the road. Well, actually no. We'll, fast forward we won't go quite that far yet. Fast forward a handful of years at least you, you're in leadership. How did, how did that come about?

How did you move into leadership from just being, well, not just, I don't wanna say it, but from being a goon, how does that become

Ada: like it was just. I was just in the right place at the right time. I don't feel like. I was, I don't know, people are like, but you have the right experience. I'm like, like, it was just, um, I always used to write down because you can write down notes about yourself in your sign up. And I was just write down, um, that I am trained in mental health assistance and suicide prevention.

Because I did 6 years working on suicide hotlines

AJ: tough

Ada: um, so I was like, anytime, anytime you need somebody or something like that, come find me, let me know and I can help with that. Um, in [00:16:00] 2017, we had an incident where a woman tried to come forward and talk to somebody about something that had happened to her and that goon didn't know how to respond and so his first inclination was to look for me. Um, he told her to stay there and he came to try to find me. And by the time we returned, she was gone. I mean, very common. Uh, victims tend to try to seek safety. Safety wouldn't have been out on the floor of

AJ: Right. Hanging out in a big crowd in Vegas. Yeah.

Ada: So she's probably back in the hotel room. By that point we searched all over. Defcon never found her sober, right?

Like that's not gonna, that, that report's gone. Um. which the higher ups were not happy about. They want to be able to know more about these kinds of incidents that are happening at DEF CON so they can better handle them, so that, you know, women feel safe there, so [00:17:00] that any variety of minorities feel safer at DEF CON because they can figure out what's happening and try to take steps to reduce it. Um, so I end up in a very, um, it felt like a really weird Meeting, because I'd never been in the same room as DT at the time,

AJ: Dark Tangent. For those who don't know who DT is, he's the founder.

Ada: these are like a bunch of people who are like way above me on the leadership chain and I just work for a sock like I end up in a room with all these people.

Um, and I felt like I didn't belong there so much so that I can tell you that DT's shoes were very sparkly that day.

AJ: You were staring at him the whole time you had your head down.

Ada: Yeah, he had on like these sparkly black tennis shoes. It was great. Um. Because that's what I was paying attention to

AJ: Right. I got you. Grounding yourself. I can get it.

Ada: and they're like, well, what can we do? How can we prevent [00:18:00] this? We talked a little bit about the incident that happened. Like, why would why would she disappear? Why wouldn't she stay? And I was trying to explain to him and there was also a nurse who was there. who was trying to describe to them the reasons why this would have happened.

And they're like, how do we give people a space where they feel like they can talk to somebody with people who know how to respond to this kind of thing? And that's where the idea for Hotline came up. Basically, the idea being, like, use the premise of a suicide prevention hotline where people are trained in order to respond to these types of incidents, um, and give people a phone number they can call if they have issues, um, because then they could be in their hotel room and call us.

Right. Um, they don't have to be on the floor at DEF CON. Um,

and they know they can call, yeah, and then they know they can call someplace where people are prepared to respond [00:19:00] properly to their problem and not just like, I don't know how to handle that.

AJ: Right. Right. I got

Ada: Let me go find Ada.

AJ: Well, plus you're not going to be scalable. Like if this gets, people start learning about this and it's available, it can't all be Ada. It's, I mean, it's a, it's a long, it's a long week in Vegas, man, and it can't all be one person handling it. I mean, we'd like to think there won't be a lot of incidents.

There's going to be some. There's a lot of people. I mean, how many people do you think go to DEF CON every year? You probably have a

Ada: I think the maximum was about 30, 000. We dropped off a little bit in um, 2020 and 2021, um, and it's still kind of ramping back up to pre COVID numbers at this point, but I think we're almost approaching 30, 000, if not a little bit more. If you go to the Wikipedia, it'll tell you how many, how many people

AJ: well, anyway, I mean, you're talking to 20, 25, 30, 000 people. You're talking to four days plus really, cause people don't,

Ada: It's a small town. It's like,

AJ: right. It's things are going to happen. Like that's [00:20:00] whether they're nefarious, whether they're in unintended. There's going to be things, right? And there's going to be reports that should be taken on those things to understand what was, what was what and what the stories are.

And so, yeah, and that is definitely not all going to be you. So, so this was 2017, you're saying was this conversation. Is that got that right? Yeah. So 2018 was the first year of hotline. I'm

Ada: So, 1st, year hotline, it was, um. 7 people, uh, we had. We had so few people working that year that literally, if somebody wanted to go to the bathroom, I had to return to the room. So, there would be enough people to answer the phones. Um, it was really rough. Uh, I don't think I slept much that year. Um, I don't think I slept much the first few years of Hotline, really.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to guess you probably haven't slept much until maybe last year. Maybe.

Ada: last year when we finally, when I finally had somebody who helped me out doing the same job, I finally got some good sleep. Yeah.[00:21:00] 

AJ: Yeah. It's a tough, it's a tough gig. Well, plus there's a lot of heavy things going on too. So like that, you know, it's, it's not a lightweight job for getting the hours and the lack of people it's heavy. Like it's, these are heavy, you know, topics and,

Ada: But, but also, like, I try to explain to people why I like doing this job, why I like being the person people come to. Like, I like feeling like I can be of service. I can be helpful. I can be there for people. I like those things. So listening to hard stories and being there for people doesn't drain me the same way as it might other people. Um, it's just, I like it.

AJ: I can appreciate that. I mean, I, in the opening, you know, I mentioned, you know, I have a, I have a master's in organizational leadership. Don't care about that a lot much, but the focus is servant leadership. And so in that way, I think you and I are aware of the same, I'm, I'm a big believer in that. You know, I was, I was the kid who never did my own [00:22:00] homework, but help my friends do their homework.

I don't get a lot of satisfaction. I have to do my own work. Apparently sometimes you have to, they do pay you as an adult to do it. But uh, I get a lot of satisfaction about helping other people. I'm notorious for. Making a debt by being late on my own deadline because I helped somebody else with something that frankly may not have even been that important, but I get it like just the want to serve others, you know, to help.

Um, so, you know, it certainly makes sense. And, and listen, I haven't said it much. Obviously, I haven't said anything on the show so far, but I, other than that, we're friends. I've known it a while. I know it because of hotline. Um, I, I'm a goon and thanks data. Uh, and I work on hotline too. So it's something that we don't.

necessarily talking about much, uh, publicly, but it's, uh, it's, yeah, it's what I do. You know, I, I had a friend and had sponsored me to go be a floor goon, uh, but then COVID hit. And so it wasn't going to happen that year. And then the following year, uh, it had a, uh, kind of a public all call basically. I was like, I, I think I might be able to do this.

I don't have your background on the psychology background. Uh, but you know, that, that desire to serve, right. Desire to help and, and willingness to learn. Um, Which is a big part of this, you know, and not trying to solve all the problems, uh, which I'm still working on [00:23:00] my own personal life. So, um, it's, it makes sense.

It's, it's who you are and how you're wired, which is also how I know that Ada doesn't sleep at DEF CON if she did. This was probably the

Ada: I, I will say that a degree in experimental psychology is a degree that doesn't help people.

AJ: No, not so

Ada: a degree, it's a degree where you research people. Yeah, like, uh, I think it was, it was, It was in that last lecture book, the,

AJ: Oh, I love that

Ada: guy said, the guy said, um, I'm a doctor, but not the kind that helps people.

AJ: He was like, he was a professor, right? Uh, it's Randy, Randy, Randy.

Ada: uh, physics or something like some, one of those degrees where like, yeah, I'm a doctorate. I'm a doctor, but not the kind that helps people.

AJ: did he, uh, for what it's worth. Um, If anybody doesn't know the book, by the way, the last lecture, I highly recommend reading it. Uh, Dr. Randy [00:24:00] Pausch, uh, wrote it not long before he died. It's a kind of a heavy book. Uh, he's a doctor in computer science.

Again, I have Google, so I have huge advantages over here. Yeah, I've got my, I've got plenty of screens. So, um, But anyway, yes, I get to do those things live as we're going. Um, but no, I, I get it. Right. That, that makes, it makes really good sense. So, all right. So 20, 2017 is the discussion, 2018 hotline starts.

As you said, there's like seven people. It's, you know, nobody can go to the bathroom without having to come back because you're just short on, on people. And then it's been building from the center. If you, if you had, like, how, how does the, what'd you guys use for metrics to measure, like how'd the first year go?

Did you ever have reporting? Do you have metrics? Did you talk to leadership about this is what we did and you know, how were you guys able to, to, how were you able to justify and prove, Hey, there's real value to this in terms, you know, statistical terms so it could grow, um, you know, what kind of impact did you have, obviously without giving away too many, you know, you don't want to talk about specifics of course, but.

Ada: mean, most of the time when we take down how many calls, how many texts do we get in a year that grows every year every year. It [00:25:00] gets bigger. That number gets bigger. The 1st, few years. Our, our real metrics for this is working and we should continue doing it tended to be the types of phone calls that we got.

Um, so, like, you know, I think that year we had a couple of people come in with restraining orders from different states that they would like to. Ryan, see if they could have enforced, but that takes a lot of, like, legal going through, um, the courts and stuff. But how can you help me with this particular restraining order?

What we can, you know, we can try to do

AJ: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Ada: some amount of, you know, telling the, um, hotel about it, seeing if they want to do anything about it. And can we try and, like, if you see this person here, come get a goon, like, um. We had [00:26:00] some phone calls for, uh, like, sexual harassment, um, various forms of misconduct while they're, while at.

At DEF CON, um, some of the things we can help with, some of the things we can't help with, but I think leadership still wants to know that those things are happening. Like, I can't really help if you were at a party off site and drinks were spiked.

AJ: Right. Sure.

Ada: Right, but it's nice for us to know that there's a problem we might want to think about. So, just being able to have an idea of what kinds of calls are coming in, what kind of assistance we can, we are giving. I think that really proves our usefulness for the most part. That's what we're, that's what I've been using for the most part to say, hey, this is what we're doing.

AJ: Well, I mean, it's grown every year. Right. Leadership supports it. I mean, I know there's a report at the end, uh, you know, last, last [00:27:00] day of DEFCON, DEFCON closing ceremonies that were some of these things we talked about. And so, I mean, I don't, I

Ada: take, we try to take all these things that happen and say, here's some numbers. So you can say, see what we're doing. And the problem is that even with that, we can't say, like, here's the number of people who came forward with sexual harassment claims. And this is the ones we could help.

These are the ones we could, like, that's not really useful data. Um, well, we can say, you know, what kinds of things came in? How, how, how are we helping as much as possible? And try to use that sort of as a deterrent well. Like, we see you

AJ: Well, it's a good point.

Ada: doing these things.

AJ: Yeah. I mean, it's a good point. At least people know this exists, right? I mean, there, there, there are two points to that. I guess there's the, the comfort level. I mean, you mentioned earlier, you know, the reason for this in part, at least probably in whole really listen, DEF CON can't just be a bunch of dudes.

Like it just can't be a bunch of, you know, white cis males running around basically. So, uh, I mean, I guess it could, any place can be, but there's names for organizations that are a bunch of just white cis [00:28:00] males running around. Um, yeah. And you need that diversity because that's what makes a better community, a better culture, a better business, a better everything, right?

It's people that think differently, that act differently, that see the world differently, that have different points of view. And in order to do that, you've got to create an environment where people feel like they're allowed to be there, that they're welcome. Right? And, and Defcon does a really good job of that.

But a big part of that, I think, is, is because of Hotline, right? So that, so you have the one aspect of, hey, I want to know that I can go someplace where if I'm not safe, I have somebody I can talk to who knows how to listen and will and can help. The other side is if you're kind of a shitty person, you now realize, Hey, there's a place where people can go and get help if I'm a shitty person.

So, you know, it isn't just like it's, it's me, them, or the cops, right? There's a, there's a lot of in between there. And it's again, 30, 000 people milling about. It's not like we have law enforcement all around that place, unless they're undercover and has a whole different background of chasing down, chase the, you know, going after spot the fed, but, um.

But I think you're right. There's a deterrent component to that. Shitty people might understand [00:29:00] they, they, they also could find themselves dealing with problems. They gotta, they gotta know. Right. And so hopefully you weed out more of those and you, you make sure we have people that just want to go and have a good time and just learn and, and hang out.

And, and it, listen, if there's people you don't like and they're not your kind of people, fine. I'll hang on. And there's 30, 000 people there.

Ada: Yeah, all right.

AJ: there's a lot of people I don't want to hang out with for various reasons. There's 30, 000 people there. It's okay. You know, we talked about you find your tribe, right?

You find your, your. Your people. Um, so I think that's really cool. And, and I know it's, uh, it's been impactful. You know, I've, I've seen it. I've been lucky enough to see some of it firsthand. Um, and some amazing people, uh, that I've gotten to meet and work with and learn from, uh, starting with you, obviously, uh, which brings me to another question is you had seven, the first year you've grown, how many did you have last year for hotline?

How many did we have?

Ada: Not enough.

AJ: Well, that's going to be, that's going to be the third question goes, but how many, how many do you have now? Like how many did we have?

Ada: I don't like to usually go into

too many numbers about how hotline works because,

AJ: Got it.

Ada: you know, it's 

AJ: Well, [00:30:00] we won't go into specifics then. I don't, I don't want

Ada: like, uh, I try to protect my folks as much as possible from certain things. So there is some amount of, um, 

AJ: anonymity 

Ada: involved in that, you know,

AJ: All right. Well, let's, let's go to the third

Ada: do have some good folks this year.

Every year. I feel like we get better and better people. Uh, like, I think the 1st year I took whoever was, yeah. Willing and didn't sound like they would burn the place down during an interview because everyone interviews at first. Right? Um, and this last year, I had to pick between, like, somebody with a degree in psychology who does counseling and somebody who had who does side work working with people who have. Substance abuse problems, like, we had a lot of really good candidates. Um, and so from year to year, I feel like pool gets more and more [00:31:00] competitive, um, because we get better and better people that are, you know, just a part of the community who go every year because Defcon is their tribe and that's where they want to be every year.

Um, and they still want to. Come back every year now and help out and volunteer. Um, I, I had the, the issue this year of being like, I think we're almost full because so many people return, which is a good problem to have. But we are building in more fail safes this year for, uh, people who get COVID the 

AJ: I was gonna say, yeah, I was gonna say, I helped you out. Not making, making sure you didn't have too many people. I went ahead and got COVID, uh, which was delightful. Uh, I, I finished black hat. I actually went over to, uh, register for, for, uh, DEFCON in human register, as we call it for the, for the goons picked up my gear, went home and immediately tested positive for COVID, so I got my shirt and then spent the next four days in the hotel room, not allowed to breathe on anybody or talk to anybody or be of any real use at all, and I got to tell 

Ada: Because I feel like we had [00:32:00] almost the right number for this year, and then two

AJ: Then I screwed it up, but we had two people. It wasn't just me. We had somebody else who had an emergency. I remember that. Um, but, uh, yeah, I felt bad. Never had worse FOMO than, than Vegas last year to be in the, and I was in the hotel. Like if I wandered around, I had a mask on, I barely left the room for anybody wondering, but if I had to, you know, go downstairs, whatever, and I would see people, I'm like, I can't go over and talk to anybody.

Like I'm just, and nobody probably recognized me because I look like shit. I mean, I don't know how sick people have been, but nobody looks like themselves. If you can avoid it, I had a hoodie on and just, I mean, I just looked like a troll who wanted to avoid everybody anyway, which is just slightly worse than what I look like today.

But, um, Yeah, the whole FOMO was just unbelievable. I would see people like, God, this is what I should be doing. But nope, I'm gonna go back to the room and sleep for another 12 hours. Uh, yeah, it was a, it was delightful, but at least I gave you the opportunity to have the challenge of not having a full staff.

So you're welcome. I'd like to, you know,

Ada: So, we're building on a, we're going to build a little more of a question this year to make up for that.

AJ: Yeah, it's a good idea. It's a good idea. I know we had somebody a couple years ago. We got the covid [00:33:00] to one of our leaders got covid. Um, two years ago. So, um, it does happen. I felt terrible about it and surprised.

Frankly, I really didn't think I was one of those. I tested like every day. I was like, I don't have covid. It's gonna be quick. Every day I was testing. I was like, come on, I'll get back in the game. Can't do it. I know what it's like now. To be an NFL player where they take your helmet away and we'll let you back on the field.

Cause you can't pass your, your concussion test, even though you want to go play. Um, but anyway, so, all right, we, we won't talk about the specifics. That's good. I love it. We want a few more. So the question was, the last question I had listed up here was, you know, are we, are you looking for more people for hotline?

Sounds like the answer's yes. Um, and, and based on that, like, how does someone get involved? How does someone volunteer? How could they reach out to what's the process and what's the timing? If somebody wants to get involved, uh, in, in hotline,

Ada: So, the call for new people will go out February 1st, which is common for hotline. Um, we start way earlier than most departments, but it, it will go out. Um, if, you know, somebody who works [00:34:00] for already asking them to make the connection, because. That helps me have. Some referral, um, and if you don't, we usually post it on, we used to post it on Twitter and we might again, but Twitter is not as good of a place as it used to be.

So I'm pretty sure we're going to post it on Twitter and mastodon and blue sky year,

AJ: Okay.

Ada: I think those are the places. Um, so there should be a DEF CON hotline. Social media for all of those places, and I think I also have one. So if you want to find me as well, uh, there's an Ada Zebra, maybe just regular Ada Zebra on Twitter.

That's me. And then there's

AJ: Clearly you're calling yourself.

Ada: Social,

AJ: Yeah.

Ada: uh, that's John, and something similar on Blue Sky. Um, the, yeah, I, I'm, I'm not a [00:35:00] social media person, yeah,

AJ: we'll gather it up when the, when the show comes out and you said, you know, the call start February 1st, which the show will be out after that. I think, uh, I'll get it for the show notes so that we have, you know, we can put it in the show notes. Like here's, here's some links, et cetera.

Listen, when in doubt, if you guys don't know, like ping me, like my company. And I won't be the answer, but I'll find you the person who's the answer, right? It's fine. You know, if you just can't find an answer and you're like, I really want to do it, AJ at unspoken security, I'll get you me. I'll, I'll get you to the right people.

Um, you know, what are you looking for?

Ada: That'll end up being set up for an interview because, um, since it's a more sensitive nature job, we do, um, like, 30 minute interviews. Sometimes they go a little over. Usually they're about 30 minutes. Um, then I set those up for mid February, like February and well, usually mid because I like to make choices by the end of February.

If I can, um, it kind of [00:36:00] goes fast ish. Uh, but yeah, I think the, the, the call is always something along the lines of, you don't necessarily have to have experience. Um, with with psychology, or with this type of hotline, um, because not everybody does, which it is nice to have, but it's not necessary. But you might just be that friend that all of your friends come to.

When they have problems, and they need somebody to talk to, and we do have plenty of people who come through for just that person who just do an excellent job. Uh, and then. Once selections have been made, class starts. There's a class. It starts usually late March. Uh, it runs all the way to DEF CON, but it's like one hour a week.

Usually we try to figure out when people are available so that we're not like, [00:37:00] Oh, you have to be there every day, every Wednesday at two o'clock Pacific or something. That is just ridiculous for everyone, right? Um, we

AJ: Well, yeah, we have some people that are overseas, so yeah, it's, it's hard to figure out those schedules, right? Everything from the West coast to Europe, you know, adds up on somebody who's gonna

Ada: last year, we had to do one of those. 

AJ: Mm hmm. 

Ada: I think we were noon on Sundays because that was what worked for the majority of people. So we try to work around people's schedules as much as possible. That being said, there's always, you know, you can always miss a day if you need to, just as long as you let me know because we. Um, you can make it up later. It's fine. Um, but it is, you know, several weeks of training and then practice calls all the way up to DEF CON.

And when the big show starts.

AJ: right. Well, yeah, it's no joke. Listen, I, you know, the first year. So when I interviewed, uh, it's funny you mentioned, you know, some people are just the friend people come to and I'd say that, you know, that was where I fit in. Right. I said, I don't have a degree in psychology or [00:38:00] psychiatry. I haven't, I haven't worked trauma hotlines or anything like that before, but I'm one of those people that a lot of people Come to with stuff, I guess.

And I, and I want to, to list, I want to be the most people, but, uh, you know, being transparent, we went through the whole interview process. I wasn't selected originally. Um, I was, I was the first alternate essentially, or one of the first I'll go with first, you might, you may have, have actually gone further on the roster, but I, you

Ada: I think that every year I pick a couple alternates and almost every year, each 1 of those alternates becomes full time because somebody drops or something happens.

AJ: know, well, they said there's, you know, it's, it's good competition. There's, you know, there's a good candidates. Right. And I remember, I remember our conversation. I remember the interview very well. Um, and I also remember when you had to tell me I wasn't, I wasn't selected. And, uh, You know, and I remember saying at the time, like, that's good, you know, obviously I'm disappointed, et cetera, but it means you got good people.

Like that's, that's the goal. The goal is to get the, you know, the best people and best is subjective, but you get good people. Right. And if, if I wasn't good enough, if I didn't meet the mark, then that's good news. I want people to get the best service and support they can get. It's not [00:39:00] about me. I frankly, if somebody said, you know, got really mad about it, I think maybe that explains why they shouldn't probably have, you know, this opportunity or responsibility because it's not about me.

Uh, but I remember having that conversation and then, uh, and then I remember not, not long after when you reach out and like, Hey, um, are you still interested? Like. And we had, we had somebody fall back. Um, and I was like, yeah, it was great. I'm excited. But it also, for what it's worth, I didn't even share this with you.

It probably was good for me because it allowed me to stay a little more humble to like, listen, I'm not even supposed to be here, like, you know, in the positive way, not the, uh, you 

Ada: So, I

AJ: this is not 

Ada: put it that way. 

AJ: no, you wouldn't put it that way. No, you 

Ada: I, I say that because, because I feel like, um, we get a lot of good candidates nowadays, like a lot. Right. And if you don't, I always, I'm always telling people is you don't make the cut at first. It's not because you're not a good candidate. It's just because there's so many to choose from.

And so someone might just have, you know, something special about them specifically that helps our team. Be able to do [00:40:00] something specific. Better. It is the way all jobs are, right? Like, if you're interviewing for any job, it's like, we want with a different candidate. Well, why? Because that guy knew.

JavaScript, I don't know something, right? Like, who knows what? Um, and so a lot of the time, that's the reason for rejections and it's because, you know. I only had 2 seats and these 2 people had something specific about them. Right? Um.

AJ: No, absolutely. And for me, it was good because, well, again, because the training, I mean, you talked about training and training is no joke. Like this is, this is not, uh, This is a serious business, you know, you get in and I remember the first year, you know, the training it's, it's, you know, Ada has an immense amount of experience and materials and it's, it's, it's a, it's a class, right?

It's college, you know, it's, there's, there's

Ada: you get to take it again this year.

AJ: Oh, no, do I? I thought I just had to do role play this year. Why? Oh, is it

Ada: every 3 years.

AJ: it's good. I shouldn't say, damn it. Now I said that live, listen, this is good. I'm sure you're raving about it. Now you can tell I hate school, but [00:41:00] no, the point was it was really educational and it was good.

And, and

because 

Ada: graded. You're fine.

AJ: know I, of course it's not, but because I think because I was the alternate, Made me go, Hey, this is, you know, I probably took it more seriously. I feel bad saying that maybe I didn't, but I felt like I got things to learn. Like I'm, I'm lucky to be here. I got things to learn. And, and it was a really impressive, you know, course.

And it was, and it was, I learned a lot. And, and then you go through the role play and the role play, by the way, for anybody who doesn't know of course, if, uh, even, even if you've been a goon, you've done the training, you've, you've been a hotline. Goon role plays every year we all have to do the role play.

So you do the book, your. Every three years, apparently, and then the role playing we all have to still do so. And that's a ton of it. And that's what we challenge each other. And we come up with great ideas. And in my case, you can be sure that I'm definitely going to role play one character who's drunk and has lost their pants.

Uh, cause that's my typical thing for the new and every year is to give them one of those. I'm lost. I don't have my pants on and I don't

Ada: I don't know why you picked that 1 as the 1 you do every

AJ: because it's funny and people like it. Listen, I think this year I had one that suggested there might've been a murder involved too, but, um, it was like an abduction.

It was a very weird one. [00:42:00] Because it's hard, frankly, because they have to start with nothing, right? You're starting with the least information from somebody. First, you have to figure out, are they in danger? Are they really, is it really a serious thing? Are they just drunk? Are they a goofball? Are they, you know, cause people do prank call and all that stuff.

It forces somebody to ask the questions, kind of root it out. And I have fun with it as a, when we do role play. But, um. But no, the point here being it's real training, this is legitimate work. This isn't a bunch of people who just come in and screw off and like, okay, now you're going to go help a bunch of people.

Like I got a lot smarter and, and better, uh, and more empathetic. And I still do working with people because of this role though. And you, you get to, and then sadly, we hear some real stories as we go through and you really have to learn how it's, how it's done in real life. Um, but it really matters. I, and that's kind of the point is that the training is important.

It does matter. And as you said, you know,

Ada: Um, Um,

AJ: The skills can be varied. You know, we have some people from all walks of life that do this and with various, you know, educations and skill sets. Uh, but I think everybody, to my knowledge, I think the thing that unifies them is what you said, everyone wants to help, you know, it's, it's that servant's heart, that servant mentality in the room, uh, which means we don't have like internal bickering and [00:43:00] stuff.

It's, you know, nobody's, nobody's trying to be right. You know, everybody's just trying to help each other, which, which is because of you, frankly, uh, to be honest, um, you know, you

Ada: If you say so,

AJ: oh yeah, no, it

definitely 

Ada: like I feel that line is amazing because of. All of you, because the team is so great, but you

AJ: Yeah, but who created the team, Ada? Who selected the team? Who had the process? It's alright, I know you're not going to take credit. It's fine. And you're right, it's everybody, but it started with you. Like, this didn't exist until you had the idea and put it forward and it makes it makes DEF CON a better place.

In my opinion. Um,

Ada: you have your 1st year, right? And that's your noon year because everybody still has to have their noon year. And then not everybody makes it after their 1st year. Right I don't think I've had a year. Yeah, where I've accepted all applicants. And occasionally it's just, we sit in a very small room together.

For eight hours, and [00:44:00] you were not a good fit for that. Right? Like, you, uh, annoyed every single person you worked with, and everyone said, no, that's why. Like, I

AJ: Yeah. No, but it's true sometimes.

Ada: say it, right? But like, that has happened in the past. It is a, it has been a reason for a candidate rejection.

Um, and so, I

AJ: You miss all your shifts. You show up late constantly, things like that. You're partying a lot. Uh, we haven't, I don't think we have that one, I guess. But, um, but no, you're right. I mean, it is tough. You got to be able to get along with people in close quarters for long periods of time. And oftentimes when we're very cold, uh, or because the room's been cold, uh, 

Ada: about that.

I don't think I could have done either. I don't know how

AJ: it's, it's ironic 

Ada: with that 1 room.

AJ: Oh, it's so cold. It's ironic to be in Vegas and believe me, if you've never worked in Vegas, everybody knows Vegas is hot, obviously, but imagine going to work and it's 112 outside, and then when you get to work, you have to put [00:45:00] on a hoodie and sweatshirt or sweat pants or something. I mean, we were, people were carrying other gear with them to work.

Cause it's like 48. That's what it felt like, but it was funny.

Ada: into, I literally just walked into Vend. And was looking for sweatshirts, and I grabbed, like, three sweatshirts and brought them back to the room, and I was like, here guys, have sweatshirts.

AJ: remember that. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. It's, I mean, listen, we get, we get good spaces. We're lucky to have them, but yeah, sometimes it's cold, but I mean, the point you make is, yeah, we spent a lot of time on each other. So there is something about being able to work with each other and this is multiple shifts.

So there's a chance that, you know, some people just work better with others. You can create it, but like you said, it's, it's a combination of being able to be

Ada: I can't always. Do that, right? Because there's only so many shifts. And so, like, if somebody's not getting along a lot, then it's not like I can guarantee them they'll be somewhere else. Um, and so that's kind of an issue we have with, because it's a small group. It's still not that big, like, so.

AJ: That's true. No, that's true. And it's good. And, and so [00:46:00] this isn't really part of the question, but I'm going to throw it in as a, as a kicker anyway. Uh, how have you seen, so 2017, the idea of 2018 is the first year. So now we're like, like 2025 years. So you're talking seven years in, how have you seen the relationship between, uh, like the traditional sock goons, the floor goons specific.

And by the way, for those that are no sock, you know, goon is everything like vending is goons, if you're selling sweatshirts, they're goons. And there's people who, you know, information booth or goons and, and ticketing, it's all over the place, right? Everybody, the red shirt, but the sock goons, the old school, like.

Physical security, keep everybody safe, break up fights, guys, you know, guys and gals and, and, and hotline. Cause a lot of these folks have to work together, right? These calls come in and they're security related. A lot of times, how have you seen that relationship?

Ada: technically, we're the same department.

AJ: True, true. We're a subset,

but we don't 

Ada: so, yeah, because we're all security, we're all trying to make sure that. The attendees stay safe, that's the basic idea. Right and we work with them a lot and they work with us a lot. Right, so like. We get a call that needs sock. We, we call [00:47:00] sock, socks, same vice versa, right?

They have an issue that comes in. They don't think they can handle the ha ha line. Um, and so that's a very close relationship that we keep, um, like, not even considered technically our own department because we are alongside the floor. Um, and I think it's only gotten better over the years. Because. When I first started, they kind of knew what, that we were there, but like, not why. Not everybody knew what Hotline was for, but over the years, I've kind of built it up. Technically, Hotline's only had 5 years, because it didn't run 2020, and it didn't run 2021. Not that I wasn't working those years, because I still work those years, um, for various reasons, um, but. Over the years, they've gotten to know what we are, what we do.

This last year, we tried to do a lot more with making sure they knew who was on [00:48:00] their shift. Because the year prior, I guess we had an issue where some hotline folks showed up to help with something that they'd been called for and people were like, who are you?

AJ: Right. So better coordination still

Ada: Like, we're hotlines! So we're trying to make sure that people know who each other are, kind of. But yeah,

AJ: Well, you also do an interesting

Ada: it's one SOC, right? It's one

AJ: Yeah. You also do an interesting program that's, that helps with some of that cross pollination, right? Because hotline, yes, we're part of sock, but we, we were in a different room because of, you know, uh, uh, confidentiality reasons, right? These are, these conversations are often separate, but we have a cross pollination program that, that you started, uh, up with, uh, at least one of the other sock leaders where.

You know, hotline goons do walk, walk on the floor with, you know, floor goons and get to learn what floor gooning is about and how that process works. And there's, there's that cross pollination of learning and we've had the same in reverse. I know some floor goons have, you know, have been involved in, in hotline training exactly took the class.

So I think that's been in the, I don't have less time, obviously, but in the few years I've been involved now, to me, I think that's been the biggest [00:49:00] change that I've seen is it's starting to feel more like it's unified, right? And people understand each other because this matters. Like you said, there are times when.

It, both sides, everybody's got to be involved and it doesn't help if you show up and first you have to introduce yourself to the people you're, you're working with on the same team that might not be comforting to the person we're trying to help if we don't even know each other.

Ada: It's also hard if, like, you're a hotline, and somebody calls up, and you don't realize that SOC could help with this. Like, the floor could help with this, right? So if you're like, I don't know how to help with this, what the thing to do would be to call and be like, hey, can you send some people over to this?

AJ: Mm hmm.

Ada: You need to be able to know that and the floor needs to know when they approach a certain kind of situation. They can just be like, call online, 

AJ: Mm hmm. 

Ada: make sure hotline gets down here. And so that has been part of it. Right? It's easier to utilize each other's talents. If you know what the other person does,

AJ: Exactly. [00:50:00] Exactly. I agree. I think it's improved a lot. I've seen it improve a lot over the last few years and, and we'll

Ada: we did, we did lose 1 person to the floor though.

AJ: That, that can happen.

Ada: Yeah, because we have 1 person who did a ride along. Missed the call for hotline because didn't know what their situation was at the time when they finally decided to join back up. They asked if they could do the floor and they liked it so much. They stayed and I'm like.

They messaged me, they're like, is it okay if I go work for the like. Do what makes you happy? Like, I used to do that job. I understand why it's exciting. I get it. I know.

AJ: Yeah. And I, I mean, I've done the ride along. I've also, I'm one of those people who often finishes shift and then walks the floor because I want to be involved. I still want to do it too. It's, it's tempting, right? Um, so I, I totally get it and you know, good for them that they're still contributing and they're involved and now they have this skill set too.

And they have this training that they bring to the [00:51:00] floor too. And, and so that, you know, that cross pollination helps, uh, because they can better understand, you know, where, when do we need hotline or maybe I can handle this thing or, you know, maybe it fits in. So I think that's actually a good thing. Um, yeah.

So, all right, listen, we're running out of time. We're getting close to the end here. So everybody in the show, every guest has the same question to close and you, you don't get a pass either. So you're on board now. So the name of the show is Unspoken Security. Uh, and if with that in mind, you know, tell me something you've never told anyone, something that's been unspoken.

Uh, don't, please don't confess to a

Ada: You asked me right before,

AJ: I know. I didn't give you any heads up 

Ada: think about this. Um, I still haven't to, 

Um, I wish I was better at holding grudges.

AJ: that is the first, not only on this show, but probably in all of human history, I think that somebody said that out loud. I wish I was better at holding grudges. Okay. I got to hear more about this one.

Ada: like, I'll get in an argument with somebody, right. And maybe they hold it against me for a really long time, but, [00:52:00] like, a week later, I've forgiven. I'm done. Right? Like, I,

AJ: Oh

Ada: it's fine. And some of the times, like, me trying to interact with that person later on is really weird because, like, I'm trying to be friendly because I'm like, no, I'm done.

I'm done. Pass it. We're friends now. Right? Like, we're friends again. It's fine. And they're not. And I wish I could be more, like, No, I'm still angry about this 

AJ: you just want to be on the same page.

Ada: just, I like, I'm, I'm over it. I like, I'm past the anger. We're fine. Um,

AJ: too? Where sometimes like you wish you could hold a grudge because like you regret forgiving somebody too soon. Like I, I just can't hold this grudge, but I know I should, they're probably gonna hurt me again. And they're probably gonna do things like, do you have some of

Ada: I've had to literally set rules in my brain to not interact with certain people. I had a friend at one point in time that I didn't realize was a pathological liar.

AJ: Yikes.

Ada: Uh, until I started [00:53:00] to catch them in their lies, not useful lies, really dumb ones, right? Um, Like, saying they were somewhere and they're definitely somewhere else. Uh, and I kept being like, it's fine. But it was not only hurting me, but people around me. That like, I was just being okay with this. And so finally I had to set it in my brain that I can't be friends with this person anymore.

I literally said it to them, I said, You told me this, that's not true. I need you to tell me. But you were lying to me, or we can't be friends. I don't care that you're lying to me, I just want you to tell me the truth. Right?

AJ: Yeah, sure.

Ada: trying to give them the benefit of the doubt that they could like, give it to me for real, like, 

AJ: And I 

Ada: literally were telling me that they were somewhere, and [00:54:00] the application that we were using to chat with each other gave me their location, and it was not that place.

AJ: Oh, God, that is 

Ada: I was like Tell me that this isn't true, that that's not true, and tell me the truth, this very moment, and we can be friends. And then they couldn't. And so finally I was like, I have to say we're done. And I have to set a rule in my brain that I'm not going to talk to you anymore. Because, like, this isn't just hurting me. This is literally hurting my friends. I can't do this anymore. That's really hard for me to do. To write someone off. I want to be able to say, like, It'll be fine. We should get over this. I can forgive almost anything, right? Like, I want to be able to do that, but I can't.

AJ: Well, you've taught me a lot in the time we've known each other. Maybe I can help teach you how to hold some grudges. Because I, I can hold grudges with the [00:55:00] best of them, I think. Uh, maybe not something I should be proud of, but there are certainly some people who, uh, can attest to this, who know

Ada: I, I'm sure there are literally people in this world who think I'm mad at them

and I'm not

AJ: because you are on 

Ada: I'm just not. Okay.

AJ: You're not carrying a lot of this, you know, anger and whatever it is. It just poisons us. Um, I've got, you know, Slew of grudges out there that I carry around with me.

Uh, and so we should probably swap. Maybe you can try this on for a while. If you want, you'll find it's not necessarily the right fit. Uh, and maybe I can learn how to let go of things a little bit better. So I'll probably work on this year. Maybe I can slide that into the hotline training and see if you can help me with that during, during the classes someplace, maybe, maybe that'll be my character this year when I.

When I call in as a, as a caller, I'll be something with somebody with a grudge. It's like seven years ago at DEF CON, this thing happened and I'm still upset about it. Uh, I might write that down. All right. So listen, I appreciate this. This is a great conversation. I think, I hope, uh, I think a lot of people [00:56:00] will enjoy it as well.

I think people don't know enough about DEF CON. Uh, and certainly not a lot of people know about, about DEF CON hotline specifically. Um, so it's a chance to, to, to let people know what this is, what we do and reach out, you know, if you're interested in being a part of this and, you know, uh, Ada will happily set up interviews and have discussions and maybe you can join the team and, and help a lot of people in a very unique and interesting way.

Uh, even within DEF CON, it's something that's just different from everything else. Um, and I can tell you, it's been very rewarding and, and, um, and I appreciate working with you and working with the whole team, you know, it's just an amazing group of people. Um, so before we wrap up, just any last things you want to add.

Uh, before I just close out the show and go have dinner, that smells really good. It's cooking over there someplace. That's true.

Ada: But our signups for interviews start February 1st. And we'll continue for a week, maybe 2. And then, you know, you can always call hotline phone number is like everywhere at DEF CON. So

AJ: That's true. Yeah. Lots of stickers, all the bathrooms, all the, [00:57:00] well, all the places we're not supposed to put stickers, they show up as well. Uh, but lots of, lots of, lots of stickers and handouts

Ada: It's in the program, usually it's on a billboard somewhere. It's there are postcards at every info booth with the phone number on it. A

AJ: Yeah. It'll be all over social media as well. All right. Well, listen, with that, I'm going to close it up here again. Thank you, Ada. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about this for, uh, for basically an hour with us. It was great. Uh, for those listening, I hope this was entertaining and useful for you.

And if so, please, you know, please follow and subscribe and tell your friends how much you love the shows. We can keep it going. If you don't like the show, just keep your mouth shut. Nobody wants to hear that shit. Um, no, I, I say that every time, but really, if you don't. If you have issues or ideas to make it better for that matter, feel free to reach out to me, uh, and let me know.

Cause I am always looking for feedback. Uh, but with that all said, uh, this has been another episode of Unspoken Security. Thanks for joining us. 

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