Bringing Humanity to Security (Rerun of Episode 22)

In this episode of Unspoken Security, host A.J. Nash sits down with Dominic Vogel, founder of Vogel Leadership & Coaching, to discuss the importance of bringing humanity back into the cybersecurity field. Dominic shares his journey from corporate burnout to becoming an advocate for kindness and authenticity in an industry often focused on metrics and technology.

Dominic explains how leading with empathy and building real, human connections can transform the workplace. He emphasizes that in a high-stress field like cybersecurity, creating positive environments is crucial for maintaining mental well-being and productivity. 

The conversation also touches on Dominic’s leadership approach, where he prioritizes relationships and kindness over traditional, rigid business strategies. Tune in to learn how Dominic is reshaping cybersecurity leadership by focusing on people first, showing that a human-centered approach can lead to long-term success in both business and personal life.

Transcript

Unspoken Security Ep 47 (Rerun of Ep 22): Bringing Humanity to Security

AJ Nash: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Unspoken Security. I'm your host, A. J. Nash. I've spent 19 years in the intelligence community, mostly at NSA, and I've been building and maturing intel programs in the private sector for about eight years now. I'm passionate about intelligence, security, public speaking, mentoring, and teaching.

I also have a master's degree in organizational leadership from Gonzaga University. Go Zags! And I continue to be deeply committed to servant leadership. This podcast brings all of these elements together with some incredible guests to have authentic unfiltered conversations on a wide variety of challenging topics.

It's not your typical podcast. It's not all polished and put together necessarily. My dog might make an occasional appearance. She certainly has, uh, people argue and debate here. We might swear. I've been known to do a lot of that. Uh, and that's all okay. Uh, although I dealt with a lot of arguing today with our guests, uh, but you want to think of this podcast as a conversation you'd overhear at a bar after a long day at one of the local or one of the larger cybersecurity conferences, uh, like Vegas for that matter.

Uh, these are the conversations we usually have. When [00:01:00] nobody's listening. So today I'm joined by Dominic Vogel. Uh, he's the president of Vogel Leadership and Coaching. Uh, Dom's built a strong reputation and a following, uh, as an authentic leader, providing pragmatic solutions to cybersecurity and leadership.

And as he puts it, saving companies from evil cyber villains. Prior to opening his own firm, Dom built this foundation with over 15 years in the cyber security space, including roles in the financial, healthcare and transportation sectors. He holds a bachelor's in computer science from Simon Fraser University and is based out of Vancouver, British Columbia, where he's a very dedicated family man and an avid collector of hats.

As you can see, he's got his Baltimore Orioles hat on today. Uh, and so he's, he's, he's working on all those things in his private time when he's not out saving the world. Uh, Dom, is there anything I left out of your bio that you want to add?

Yeah, man. Thanks for being here. I mean, really happy sort of camp, you know, capture who you are. Right. I mean, I've, I've talked to a couple of folks. In fact, just before we came on today, I was chatting with somebody. I said, listen, [00:02:00] this guy is the happiest guy in the world. I mean, without being just on drugs all the time, as far as I know, uh, he's the happiest guy I know.

And, and so like, it's, you're infectious in a good way, you know, uh, in the age of COVID infectious doesn't always sound good, but, uh, in a good way, right. You're just, you're remarkably happy and positive. It just emanates through everything you do. It's how we met obviously through, through social media, actually through LinkedIn and, and I was immediately attracted to your personality and it just, you're just, you're just a beacon of positivity.

So it makes me ask as today, the topic of today's show is bringing humanity into security. Uh, because, you know, we spent a lot of time in this industry. It's, it's metrics and KPIs and, and OKRs. And, and, and there's a lot of, you know, a lot of regimented stuff and, and details and money and, and, and all these kinds of things.

Right. But the humanity often gets lost and, and you're just, that's who you are. Right. So bringing humanity, humanity into security being today's title. I wanted to start like, listen, were you always such a touchy feely guy when it [00:03:00] came to business? Is this, is this always how it was for you or, or, or not?[00:04:00] 

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. Like I said, obviously I follow you on LinkedIn and, you know, we've talked a lot and, and it's true. And for those who don't know, uh, Dominic Vogel, if you're not following him, I highly recommend it. You might listen. I know some people listen to the show and it's some people very buttoned up and put together and I don't have time to, you know, listen to somebody just wants to make everybody smile.

I promise you it's not what you think. Like Dom's a lot of interesting insights, right? It isn't just a bunch of fluff and unicorns and butterflies all day long. It's it's positivity, but in a way that actually is positive. Productive. It is helpful. It does. You do provide a lot of insights. Um, I've obviously seen a fair amount of, you know, of your personal life in there too, in a good, positive way, I think.

And I think it's really important, you know, because this is a tough business, man. I mean, we spend every day and every night. It's 24 7. You know, I've had other shows. We've talked about how this is a relentless industry. It [00:05:00] never stops. You know, adversaries are there all the time. There's always a threat.

People are under a lot of stress. And of course, now we're doing, you know, there's economics and there's, there's contraction in the industry. There's people who are, you know, struggling to find new, new places to spend their time and energy. And so it just makes it all the more important to have somebody who's able to come in and say, Hey, listen, the world's not terrible.

Like there's a lot of great things going on. We spend a lot of our time focused on. All the bad things in the world, you know, we're helped with that. Media does that. And social media certainly does that. And, and, you know, adversaries will do that with, you know, with their campaigns as well, influence campaigns.

There's a lot of negative in the world. Um, but you know, having somebody who's able to say, Hey, listen, the world's not all bad, and here's some cool insights on, on how just coming in with a good attitude, Uh, you know, and just being able to say there's, there's cool things. I'll take a minute to, to, you know, smell the roses is cliche, but, you know, to spend, spend the day with your kid, for instance, I mean, your son's on, on LinkedIn a fair amount.

And, you know, I, I admire that, that you are able to have a flourishing business in this industry, but [00:06:00] you're clearly still dedicated to family and, and, you know, bringing people. Uh, insights about, you know, how the world's still a pretty good place. Uh, I don't know. I'm not gonna lie. I don't know how you do it, you know, and I'm curious now.

We've got a few questions here to go through, but I mean, listen, just before we went on, I'm going to share this because I think it's funny and it'll open up a story, but Dom also has a puppy, um, who apparently. Like every puppy in the history of ever, uh, occasionally doesn't do things where you want them to do them.

And, and Dom was kind enough to share with me that this morning he in bare feet stepped into a puddle of puppy and, but here he is smiling and laughing about it, like, how do you, how do you do it every day? Like, how did you get to the point where you're like, I'm just going to focus on the good and, and not the bad.

Burn all my energy on the negative. Like, is it something you had to actively work on? Did you go to courses and training on this? Did you just like, how did you get there, man?[00:07:00] [00:08:00] 

That's it's, um, it's interesting to say that. I mean, that really resonates with me. I've had, I've had a handful, three that come to mind, uh, really toxic, uh, people that I've worked with. Uh, and I could name them. I'm not going to, it's that's not anybody who knows me probably knows them anyway, but I've had three, uh, and, and it's interesting because like you said, you know, in the moment.

It's miserable. It's awful. It's, you know, it's, it can be soul crushing. It can be [00:09:00] depressing. It can be angering. It depends on how they're reacting, how they're acting, how you're reacting to it. But it can create a lot of despair. Right? And yeah, in retrospect, I look and go, God, I'm really glad I came across that person because.

Look what happened as a result. You know, I've, I've had a couple of bumps in the road. Most of us have, if you, especially if you're my age and, and at the moment, it's, it's always really, really hard. And there are moments when you feel like maybe this is it, you know, we listen to for better or worse, we live in a pretty, um, uh, aggressive economic system.

Um, you know, it's, uh, you, you gotta make your own way for the most part, or you're going to struggle. And, and granted, uh, I'm, I'm in the U S where I think it's even slightly more brutal. than it is in Canada, although probably not that much. Um, but it's, it's a little more brutal in that, you know, healthcare is tied to it and things like that.

So it's easy to despair very quickly. It's easy to get in a position where you're like, well, this person treats me terribly, but what am I going to do? Like everything in my world is tied to this job and they just beat you down. And it could be for any number of reasons. Um, and then you find out later, [00:10:00] as you said, you know, you get away from that toxic person.

And maybe that was what you needed to go, Hey, I need to see the world differently. Or I need to take a risk or a chance that I wouldn't have otherwise. Um, and, and unlike you, I've talked about sending thank you baskets more than one occasion. I said, I should really send a basket to that guy. Uh, because if he hadn't been who he was, I wouldn't have made the move I made and, and things have worked out pretty well.

But in the moment, it's really, really hard when you're in the storm, you know, it's the old hurricane analogy, right? When you're in the storm, all you see is the storm. And then afterwards, maybe you see. You know, something really good came out of it. Um, you know, and, and for those who don't know, I'm sort of in the middle of some of that stuff right now.

And, and, uh, and it's hard. Uh, but, you know, we've sort of stolen a little bit from the second question. I think there's more you can dig into on it. So I was asking, you know, how you got here. The question that we had put together prior to talking was, you know, what What made you decide that things weren't working or there was a better way?

So you've already mentioned you had this toxic leader, uh, that you obviously had to move on from, but there's a difference between saying, Hey, I've got this toxic person, I'm sad, I'm miserable, I'm angry, whatever, whatever's happening, was there a [00:11:00] moment? That, that was the moment where you're like, I've got to make a move or was it just a series?

What, what got you to finally take that, that leap, that scary leap to go, I'm done being this way. I'm done being treated this way. I'm done feeling this way. I'm got to do something else. Like, how did you make that leap?

Right. Right.[00:12:00] [00:13:00] [00:14:00] 

Right.[00:15:00] 

not describing me, 

Dominic Vogel: wherever[00:16:00] [00:17:00] 

in 

AJ: and I think you made some you know, that are worth mentioning. I mean, first of all, authenticity, right? It's, it's not just about, and I know you know this, obviously it's not just about reaching out, but like that quid pro quo doesn't work. Hey, I made a comment about you. You should make one back about me.

Like, that's not authentic. That's not trying to make connections. That's not trying to build human relationships. That's just trying to build numbers. Right. And that's not the same thing. And, and people confuse the two, you know, I know people have a lot higher, you know, a lot bigger following than I do, certainly.

Uh, and some of them have really authentic connections across the board. And a lot of them just don't, um, it's just, it's a numbers game to them. That's, that's the contest. Right. And that's fine. And listen, there's money in that. You can market that if you have so many followers and people pay per follower, I mean, there's something in there, but.

I think the point you made about it being an authentic connection that, you know, in, in sales, people, you know, I've often said people buy people, they don't buy products. I don't buy services. They buy people, you know, that no, like trust, uh, scenario you were [00:18:00] talking about because a lot of times, listen to products and services.

I mean, sure. There's some that are really lousy. I'm sure. And there are some that are. Industry leaders, but there's a lot that are really close together. And, and a lot of times the separator in whether somebody wants to do business is, do I want to work with this person? Do I want to know this person? Do I trust that if I make a phone call, they'll answer?

Are they telling me things now that will be different when I sign the paperwork, uh, because you have to have that. So, I mean, there's a business component to this for those who are thinking about this strictly from a business standpoint, you know, there is a business component to this, but I'm like you in a lot of ways, nearly positive enough, frankly, but, um, but I do think it's interesting The background, you know, you mentioned your mother.

And I, you know, my mother has her had some challenges as well. In retrospect, I think we've all figured out a bit more what that might have been prior to knowing at the time. And so we both came from from a background that had some similarities. I'm not gonna try to make a comparative. Um, and I think we've had some of the same.

Similarities in business of working with toxic people and lo and behold, I think I'm sort of on the journey here on sort of I'm behind you [00:19:00] essentially. I'm, I'm getting a little more positive annually. I think, I mean, those who know me maybe argue about this Uh, but I try. Certainly try certainly to do that, right?

I had somebody in the last couple years. People have said you're such an optimist and that is not something that I would have been described as. As a younger person, um, but you know, I do try to see the positive in it. And, and more importantly, I think like you, I'm all about the people, right? It's about the connection.

It's about people. It's about how can I help? You know, whenever somebody reaches out to me on LinkedIn and I'm sure some people probably think it's a script at this point. It really isn't. But if somebody reached out to connect and it's something I want to, somebody wanted to connect with, my response is, is always.

Virtually the same, you know, thanks for reaching out to connect. How can I help? Uh, and I mean it, you know, it's not a script that's all handwritten in the case and there's typos in there as a result, but I mean it. You know, my goal is to do that. You know, I have, I have a fair amount of connections. There are very, very few and none recently that I haven't had some interaction with.

Maybe it's just that simple message. So it might not be a lot, uh, but I don't just click yes to [00:20:00] everything. You know, I can have a much bigger following. I've got hundreds or more, I'm sure, sitting in a box someplace that I'm not probably ever going to ever see. And it's nothing personal to them. It's just, you know, we don't have a connection and I don't have time for everything, but I like you, it's about that personal connection, right?

I want to be involved. I I'm active on LinkedIn. I comment on, on posts and I try to be positive, but I'm not always listening. I've got my negativity on things that I feel strongly about, I suppose, but. But I'm trying, I think I might, I feel like a bit journey with you. I don't know if I'll ever quite as positive as you.

I, I, you're I know who steps in dog pee in the morning and shows up on camera laughing and smiling about it. I think I might still be a little bitter, frankly. Uh, but you know, I, I, I got more to learn you, but I'm curious. So you've been on this journey. And so there's two things that come to mind on this.

The first one I don't have much time for. I know we're, we're, we're running a little short on time. Dom's a busy guy. He actually has something coming up right after this, which force me to actually stay on schedule and not hour and 20 minute show today. But, uh, the first thing I want just like, like 10 seconds or 15, you mentioned burnout, like what did burnout look like to [00:21:00] you?

Like, what did it look and feel like when you said, Hey, I'm burnt out? Like, what were the indicators for you? Like, this is, I'm burnt. I gotta, I gotta stop doing this. Like was it? Yep. Yep. Yeah. And I can appreciate that. I had a similar, again, experience. We have a lot in common this way. And again, it was a partner that told me too, I didn't realize just how miserable I was until it was somebody who said, Hey, I'm worried about you. And then I assessment. God, I really am [00:22:00] You're right. Like all the minutes of the day. I guess when it came down, it was true. Like when I was at work, I was unhappy when I was at home. I was thinking about work and be unhappy. Plus I had a toxic boss who would call me at all hours of the day and night. So I was always working the weekend. All I was dreading was Monday.

Like it just was, it was invasive. Right. And, but I still hadn't quite noticed it until somebody said, Hey, this is, I'm worried for you. And I was like, yeah, this is bad. I gotta, I gotta make a move to something else. Um, so it's interesting. It, it. To see it work out the same way. And then, so now that you've made this transition, you know, as you're 10 years down the road, as you said, as an entrepreneur, you're out of corporate, you're, free of that toxicity.

You're just nicest, kindest, happiest person I probably have ever come across. Can you talk a bit about like the results of your way of connecting with people? You know, what are the impacts you've seen on them? What are the impacts you've seen on yourself? You mentioned a little bit about, but now you're 10 years down the road.

You know, and by the way, I think we can all talk about the impacts of your mental health and how it feels, which I do want to, but I know for some who are listening, if they're still with us at this point, they're going to ask about the business aspect too, because there's some people [00:23:00] their mind works.

Right. So, you know, how has it translated as well?

Dominic: security[00:24:00] 

it[00:25:00] 

with[00:26:00] 

scale

Cause 

AJ: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, right? You're cause you're building relationships again. You know, I've been in plenty of conversations. I've been as, as a [00:27:00] vendor or as a customer you know, every, everybody talks about, Hey, we're not, we're not trying to, to, to be your vendor. We want a relationship.

We want to be your partner longterm. It's a sales pitch and maybe they do or don't believe in it. Some companies do a lot of them don't, but even when they do, it's, it's for the The reasons you said, but maybe not the application, it's churn costs money. Let's going on acquiring new businesses, more expensive than keeping business.

You have having great relationships. You'll have a customer that will give you more latitude, more leeway. They're more, you know, give you more grace if things don't go well, because nothing's perfect, but it takes time to build those relationships. It's hard. There's a lot of sales folks who just want to, you know, get a relationship, move it onto the, you know, get the deal done, move it onto the customer or satisfaction organization, get the next deal and, and, and, you know, churn through that's their business.

Right. And it does create this, this churn in this move. You know, we're in an industry where there are so many companies that are battling for the same business. And, you know, show. Nobody true. Uh, like they don't like most people don't.

Right. So what do they care about then? I mean, some care about, Hey, can [00:28:00] you, you know, I'm making a lot of steak dinners, are you going to give me a lot of, you know, bonuses for, for picking your company, but I think most. people. It's that relationship. I want to know that when I pick up the phone, you'll answer.

I want to know that you actually care about my problem, that you're going to listen. You're not going to shuffle me off. There's a lot of value in that. Um, but it's hard to do now. I will say this. I disagree with people who will tell you this can't scale. Yes, there's a cap. You can only scale so far. I think it can scale.

If you build a team of people who are like minded though, there's aren't that many, but I think this is the kind of business model that can and should scale. It's about changing how people work in industry, whether it's our industry or any industry. If more people looked at it from a human standpoint and from a, how can I genuinely make your life better?

All right. I assume if I do that, the money will show up in my life will also be better for it. If I just said, Hey, how do I make this person's life better? Talk to me about what your problems are. You know, it's a, it's a consultative approach in sales and Sandler sales for those who've done sales, but you have to actually mean it.

You have to actually care. Don't take the Sandler class. Cause you know, these are [00:29:00] the steps to make people believe you actually give a shit and just sit down and go, Hey, Talk to me, what are your problems? And also be honest and say, Hey, I can't solve those problems for you if I can't, but I know somebody who can, because that also pays off that personal recommend you someplace else.

I think if we just had more that did that, I don't think the business is something that can't scale. You personally can't, I mean, there's only so much you can take on, but if you had three partners, four partners, if you had a firm of people who all had this as their mantra, we just care about the people and, and have that, that trust and have, you know, that, that, you know, knowledge and, and, and like, and trust, as you said.

And. I think it is scalable. I think it should be the entire industry should work this way. And I think it would scale greatly, but it just doesn't because people are either not of a mind or or just lazy. Maybe I don't know. I don't it's or maybe they're not knowledgeable. Maybe I shouldn't make it so negative.

It just haven't been informed yet that there's a way to do business like this that can be effective. You know, getting your message out, having more people see it. That you can do this. And sure, if you want to as a solopreneur, you can do that too. And I think it's great to say, Hey, I just want to make enough to have a decent life for my family [00:30:00] and not be poisoned and miserable every minute of every day.

And, you know, hang out with my kids and be a happy person. But I actually think the concept itself can scale. I think. You just need more people that are willing to believe in the same concept. And we just don't have enough of which is part of the reason I wanted to have you on part of reason we're friends is we need more Dominic's we need more of Dom Vogels in the world basically.

and I don't cloning has been figured out yet. So, um, I assume you're, got a couple kids, so I assume you're making a couple of little, you know, Dom's, which would be good. So you're making some new people in the world, but, uh, but it's gonna take time. And that's, that's how you're going to scale.

You're going to have a, you know, have a family business and have the kids work there someday. But, um, But I appreciate what you do. I appreciate what you put into the world. Um, I learned from you. I follow you. Like I said, I pay attention. You know, I, um, I got a couple more things. I mean, we got to get to our closer question.

I have a question that wasn't part of this at all, but I'm just curious. Um, and I'm, I think others might be too. So you've got a 14 year old daughter. You've got, uh, your son is, and I don't normally talk about people's families, but you're pretty open with yours. Your son's six. Okay. [00:31:00] And that's, that's my big question.

Actually, it's probably more focused on him. Maybe the 14th. I don't know. What are you doing Halloween? Uh, so Halloween's coming up and I'm curious, first of all, I don't know. I assume like Canada is the U S I mean, you're just here basically. So I assume Halloween's is bigger deal Canada. But, uh, like, what are the kids going as far?

Are you a guy who dresses up? Does the whole family do a thing for Halloween? Uh, are the kids super involved in it? Like, how does, I'm just, I don't know why, but I'm really curious the vocal house.

Dominic: I'm 

Aj: You will be again in about eight [00:32:00] 

Dominic: it's 

Aj: course, he's going to be happy. I mean, it goes with the makes perfect sense. He's going to be a happy snowman. Like, listen, you know, growing up, that wasn't my, wasn't what I went as, you know, but, uh, I wasn't, I wasn't raised the same way. So a happy [00:33:00] snowman is awesome.

Now I grew up in Minnesota and I'm back here now. I moved back a few years ago. Uh, for us, Halloween, uh, we joke about it around here. Cause I was, I was a kid. It was often what your costume was, was whatever was going to fit over a snowsuit. Cause it's going to be, know, Arctic cold already. And, you know, we, we get, we, we've been known to get a foot or two of snow on Halloween, like it happens.

So a lot of costumes were like, you had good intentions. Then you end up being the fattest Spider Man ever because it had to be stretched over this snow suit or, know, your parents would drive you from house to house or, you know, you trick or treat for, you know, seven houses and go home. Cause you had frostbite.

Um, you know, we're the only place I can remember where trick or treating, you almost always came home with frozen candy. Uh, it was just kind of the norm. Um, you know, so it's, it's a little different around, around, around town here, but, uh, but actually the reason I asked, it does sort of tie into the rest of the conversation because.

A lot of people, if I ask that question, their answer is going to be, I don't have time for that. You know, I'm working, I'm out of town that day. I got, I got business, I got, you know, I got meetings, you know, Halloween, you know, obviously five out of every seven days, it happens on a weeknight. Um, you know, a lot of [00:34:00] people don't have that time.

And your answer, it wasn't like, well, I don't know, I got to see my schedule. And, you know, your answer, I knew it. I didn't know what the answer would be, but I knew for sure the answer was gonna be, I'm gonna be with my family. Like, I'm gonna hang out, I'm gonna do stuff with my family. And, and that's a value I think of people don't understand that that just comes with being free of some of these toxic leaders and, and some of these, you know, flawed, uh, priorities, you know, and it's not easy, right?

mean, very few people, uh, are able to go out and make that leap and, and build a, a business, uh, that's sustainable. Uh, that also, you know, fits with their values and their morals and their, their goals and objectives. And feeds the family and does all those things. Uh, so I really admire that. Um, as we're getting to the end here, so there's a closer question I ask everybody.

As you know, nobody gets a free pass. The name of the show is Unspoken Security. Uh, so with that in mind, uh, you're on, you're on the hot seat today, Dom. So tell me something, That you've never told anybody before something that, you know, to this point has gone unspoken.[00:35:00] 

Dominic: um

I 

Aj: towards the end of your time either way I based on that answer, but

Dominic: one [00:36:00] 

Aj: Yeah And what are they gonna do now, right? I mean you've been gone 10 years and and so hurry Well, I sure auditor got a good chuckle out of it Yeah, only honest person in the history Yeah He's like, ah, because he 

Dominic: honest 

Aj: Yeah, I mean, yeah, the auditors know they know it's all bullshit, right?

They know everybody's lying. This is the steps we're going to take. These are our remediation plans. They know it's all bullshit. The auditors know, and then they write it down and they move on to the next thing. And, you know, I shouldn't say all, listen, there's somebody out there right now going, I don't lie.

We do what we say. Okay, fine. There are ethical people in the world, but a lot of people. They're gonna bullshit their way through. They're gonna get to the next thing. They'll get to it when they get to it. Um, and I will say, you know, it's a good indicator for anybody who is either working in a toxic environment or if you're leading a toxic environment, which you probably don't realize, but let's assume you do.

Uh, that's what's gonna happen eventually. Like, just so you know, like the people when they burn out, [00:37:00] uh, they burn up and they'll burn everything around them. Like, it's just sort of what happens. You got to the point where, you know, you just were out of fucks to give, frankly. And, and that's what will happen, you know, and people just eventually say the things that, you That they mean, whether you like it or not, um, and it can be, you know, it can be unpleasant or uncomfortable or, or whatever for those, you know, for those who are there, I obviously, I think what said was the right answer.

It's easy me to say, um, you know, I'm a big believer in integrity and honesty. sure the company wasn't thrilled with the answer, but, um, but that's what will happen. I mean, that's, that's part of it, right? If, if you're burning people out, uh, they're, they're not going to, you know, they're not going to put in the, they don't have the energy left, frankly.

To go the extra mile to do the thing, and especially if it's something that is already unethical or immoral or dishonest or people just I'm done being that for people who just treat me and burn up my life. So I'm not shocked. You're probably not the first person to do it, but, um. I think, uh, I mean, it's a great, it's a great reveal, by the way, I've been doing this a [00:38:00] while now, uh, you know, you know, a couple dozen episodes, you know, on the books and, and I get some really cool reveals and something that you're like, Oh, This is one of the better reveals that, you know, I, I, I hope the person that you worked for at the happens to watch or listen podcast aha, knew it. I knew it. I couldn't prove it. But I knew that son of a bitch said something. God, that was the worst audit we ever had. And I knew it was because of him.

Uh, and, and now it's, you know, it all comes together for me, it probably won't happen, right? It's, you know, 18 

Dominic: about

my[00:39:00] 

had 

Aj: God, that's a good, that's a good one. I, I, I think you may have the line backwards. guy pedantic. I think it was, uh, live long after the hero or die a villain, right? Yeah. It was, I even know the scene actually, uh, chose to, to take the responsibility for something else and let the world think he was the bad guy.

Right. Uh, it's, it's a great line. It's a great movie. 

Dominic: with 

Aj: in it. So, um, and, and the Joker. Yep. Yeah, exactly. So, um, really good movie and a great quote, but it's interesting that that was like an impactful moment, right? You know, it's, we connect to all sorts of things. Right. And I've had it happen [00:40:00] where I've, I've had a song come on or a movie where I'm like, that's it, this is the moment, like, this is, this is that epiphany where like, that's the message, um, where you just realize, all right.

And it's, it's, you know, it's a credit to. To you that you're that person that you feel things right. And you, you process them and it's a great line in the one. If to change your life. Exactly. Yeah. If you're gonna, if you're gonna pick a movie a moment, do it.

not a bad one. Like are pretty solid, pretty solid movies. Uh, other than Bale always sounding like, know, was horse for, for his entire time as Batman. Um, I'm not really sure why he went with version of, of Batman, but, um, you know, That's easy for me to say. I don't think bail cares about my opinion.

Uh, anyway, so we're, we're running out of time and you've only got a few minutes till you got a client to run to. So with that in mind, listen, I want to thank you for taking the time to come on. This was everything I hoped it would be. You're, you remain just an amazing, like I said, a beacon of light, a positive guy, but also again, a really smart guy, a good business person, you know, uh, What you do matters.

You're not just [00:41:00] connecting with people. You're actually really good at the work, too. I mean, you have the technical solutions. You have the ability to help people, you know, have a better sense of security. as you said, protect the world from, you know, from evil. Uh, so, you know, it's possible to be a good guy and a good guy.

Like you can do both. Uh, and, and that's, you know, an important thing. Um, so, you know, with that in mind, I don't know if there's any last thoughts, anything else you want to throw in before we wrap up. like a minute or whatever, uh, before we do that, if there's anything we 

Dominic: you forward to, 

Aj: Oh, a hundred percent. Thank you. And you come to Minnesota, don't do it in the winter, but, uh, obviously if you're ever here, let me know. I'd love to get out to Vancouver. I've been to Seattle, haven't crossed over, but I'd certainly like to get out there at some points. It's beautiful country.

And, [00:42:00] and if I do find my way there, I'll definitely connect with you and we'll, you know, we'll grab a bite and catch up. Um, so with that, I'm going to wrap this up. This has been another episode of. Unspoken security again. Thank you so much, Don, for being on the show. Thanks everybody for listening and watching.

Please like and subscribe and you know, give good comments and tell your friends and neighbors. you don't like the show, just shut up. I don't want to know about that. No, just kidding. Feel free to tell me that too, and we'll try to make it better. But, um, but again, thanks everybody for being here.

Thank you, Don, for being here. And with that, I'm gonna close it out. This has been another episode of unspoken security.

I'm not sure what I'm [00:43:00] doing.[00:44:00] 

No, other than I'm just really happy to be here. AJ looking forward to spending time with you. And yeah, thanks for having me.[00:45:00] 

Uh, no, I, I wasn't always this person. I'll say that I've evolved into the version that I am today. And I like to think I'll evolve into a future version at some point as well. But, um, you know, I, I, growing up, I was actually, well, I was very introverted, um, you know, and the friends that I Did have always saying you're so fine.

You're so kind. And, um, it was, it's, so it's always been in me just that it's taken time for me to appreciate, I guess, who I am and [00:46:00] what, what I can bring, um, to the world. And I recognize that now one of the greatest joys that I have apart from being a dad and the husband and the family man, the greatest joys that I get are just spreading kindness on platforms like LinkedIn.

That's why when I'm on LinkedIn, I actually never talk about security, AJ. Like I can't remember the last time I talked about cybersecurity on LinkedIn. My posts are geared towards feeling good, right? About kindness, about positivity. Um, same thing with my comments. I'm just trying to bring random smiles to people's faces.

And it's amazing how much the world has opened up. To me, and vice versa, by just trying to be a source of kindness, um, more than anything in security and in the world for that matter, I think we can all, I think we could all enjoy a little more kindness.[00:47:00] [00:48:00] [00:49:00] 

For me, what happened, AJ, was that I actually burned out in corporate. That's was my transformation. I burned out terribly in corporate. Um, I'm actually entering 10 years now as an entrepreneur. So 10 years post corporate, uh, where, um, I was a shell of myself. So there's the corporate version of me and that person ended up burning out and, um.

It ended up transforming me in a way in which, um, or what I like to say, it, it broke the pieces that needed to be broken in order for me to transform into who I am today. And at the time, it was so awful. I'm thinking, why, why, why, why is this happening to me? But the gift of time and perspective made me realize.[00:50:00] 

Just how grateful I am, you know, and to the point that I always jokingly say now that, um, you know, the CIO that I worked under, um, who was a very toxic human being, I'm actually grateful that he was who he was because, um, and I should say I'm a fruit basket as a thank you because the version you're talking with today, AJ would not have happened.

Had he not been that type of person, you and I would likely never become friends. Had he not been that type of person, uh, things do happen for a reason. I'm a big believer in, in that. And it just, it, it sometimes requires time for us to, to, to have that level of perspective, you know, and being able to, um, recognize that when there's no such thing as good luck or bad luck, you know, to me, there's only, we'll see something that may seem like bad luck.

You give it enough time and perspective, it actually maybe ends up being more good luck than it was bad luck, you know, and, um, so that's, you know, to answer your question, was I always like this? No, but I need to be broken in places that need to be broken in order for me to be, [00:51:00] um, more aligned with the higher version of myself.

I'm very grateful for that.[00:52:00] [00:53:00] 

Absolutely. And it was, it was definitely, I'll say, gradual entry, just like me gingerly getting into a bathtub. It was basically after I, after I burned out in corporate, I fell backwards into becoming an entrepreneur and I never had any intention of becoming an entrepreneur. Right. That was, I could barely spell [00:54:00] the word, I can still barely spell the word.

Uh, and as I was going through that. Those the first year or two, I was just thinking, okay, well, there's a platform like LinkedIn. I'm going to try selling my services and DMs and everything was just around security, right? I, a small business owner, when's the last time you had a security maturity assessment or something along those lines?

And it got me nowhere. It got me nowhere, AJ, which shouldn't be a surprise. Uh, and I was like, this is Gotta be another way. And I was looking, you know, looking through all the posts at the time. I was like, boy, so much negative energy here. Like the people are just someone's posting, posting something or being vulnerable about something.

And people are crapping all over them. I was like, Hmm. And I thought. There's got to be something else to this and call it epiphany, a light bulb moment. I'm not sure, but like I said, the whole notion of kindness has always been rooted in me. Um, as a very, I'll say side side step to this, but I believe it's [00:55:00] related to why I am who I am.

Um, growing up my. My mom suffered and continues to suffer from fairly severe mental illness. And again, growing up, I thought, well, this is awful. Why do you have to deal with this? And it's not fair and that type of thing. But over time I recognized that it gave me qualities such as compassion, empathy, kindness, things that, although I wouldn't wish mental illness on anyone, I'm grateful for the qualities that I have.

And it came out of the fact that I. Grew up in a household with a parent that suffered from mental illness. Um, you know, back to the story, you know, knowing that was now rooted in me. I thought, well, what if I can just. Share some kindness, right? In this day and age, especially in social media, it doesn't seem to be enough kindness or positivity.

And I thought, what if I do things differently? What if I just leave an absurdly random comment on someone's post telling that they're frigging awesome or you, I'm a huge fan of alliteration. So I just come up with a bunch of random, [00:56:00] uh, high energy words and just see what that does. AJ within the first three months of doing that and doing that consistently, you know, showing up people and saying, Hey, I see you, I support you.

You're frigging awesome, keep doing that. I went from having a few hundred to a few thousand connections and followers just after, you know, six months of doing that consistently. And it led to very meaningful relationships. I'm a big believer of having gone through that, that there's power in the relationships that you build.

Dominic: And it's easy just to say to someone, Hey, hey, I just liked your post. You know, you better, you better reciprocate, better do it like that for me. But if you do, if you show up for someone time and time and time again and ask for nothing, you ask for nothing other than saying, I'm a kind person. I see you. I respect you.

I love you. Keep being you. More often than not, that person will say, Hey, you've shown up for me time and time again. What the hell can I do for you? Like you are so friggin nice to me and you've asked me for days. Nothing. Like, seriously, tell me and I [00:57:00] will do it for you. Right? And again, that's not to say that's some, you know, manipulative ploy.

It's just again, human nature in which if we show kindness and come from a place of genuine kindness, that's how you open up the hearts of people around you and people that you've never met. Right. Um, and like I said, it was a series of, like I said, epiphanies, um, but I'll say it's a series of interconnected events that made me me and realize that maybe I should do things differently.

I've always, I've always felt, even though I am a security professional by trade, I never quite felt like I was. A security person, um, I always felt a little different in the community. I thought, why don't if I try being differently, right? Looking at the stereotypical view of, you know, when I was almost 10 plus years ago, how people looked at security professionals, right?

Is, you know, either condescending, rude. Asshole, you know, you leave the, the, the, this goes on. Uh, I thought, what if I beat,[00:58:00] 

Aj: It's Dom That's well, it's fine to the point now people like, wow, you are, I always take it as a compliment to a degree, but also a damnation on our industry when people like, wow, you're not like any other security person I've met. Right. And you know, that's like I said, it's to me is. And, uh, as I became an, as I entered sort of year three and year four as an entrepreneur, I quickly realized that what I do, i.

Dominic: e. security, does not equate to who I am. In corporate, my, my identity was so inter, I couldn't tell who I am from what I do. It was all intertwined. But as I got farther away from that, I recognized who I am and what I do are two different things. And if I just. Was me on the platform like LinkedIn. I've come to, I don't quite remember where I saw the acronym, but it's acronym KLT, know, like, and trust.

If I get people to know me, to get to like me and get to trust me, what I do is largely irrelevant. I could end up selling ice and it doesn't matter. Right. [00:59:00] Um, uh, and ice isn't meant to be an acronym for some other expensive security technology. I literally mean, I literally mean ice. Um, the, uh, I've seen that separation, like I said, having people get to know you and have that very deep, visceral connection.

And I said, for me, the greatest jump point for me was actually during COVID when a spot when we were all, you know, we lost our physical proximity to one another. Those that were able to develop emotional proximity, those deep, visceral human connections with one another, saw an explosion in growth. And that's where, for me as an entrepreneur, that's where I saw my greatest explosion growth by investing in that human capital.

Aj: interesting points[01:00:00] [01:01:00] 

not not

closely we'll later I[01:02:00] 

I'm on that The only [01:03:00] person

so from

such is going to run an

how toxic Yeah, the burnout for me. It was actually, um, I didn't actually fully recognize it. It was my wife and she said, I don't recognize you. She said, you are so cynical. You're so jaded. You're so negative when you come home, you're exhausted. Um, and you just want to be by yourself. You know, like that's. That's not you, right?

Dominic: And [01:04:00] that was the awakening moment for me. And my, my daughter was little at the time. My daughter who's 14 now remembers my corporate days. My son has no, he wasn't born, right? So to him, working is this, I'm glad he doesn't know corporate me.

Aj: had to take an I was like miserable[01:05:00] 

you're

You know

that's just how to business I'll start off with this story. So, um, so on LinkedIn, like I mentioned earlier, I never post about because I noticed that when I would post about security, I would get very little in the way of leads or any engagement. And I post about something meaningful or, you know, life lesson as a parent.

Dominic: And then I ended up getting more business as a result of that post. I thought, okay, well, I'm going to stop talking about security because I've come to realize, for the most part, people don't really give a crap about cyber security, [01:06:00] unless they have to, right? Um, so I thought, okay, maybe it is a true story, right?

It took me almost 20 years to figure that out. But, uh, I was like, okay, well, let's, let's, let's change the script here. And. You know, when I post about one of the things I post about this, this story to me epitomizes why I don't post about cyber security. Um, someone that has followed me for for years, um, you know, She and I were catching up and she said dom, you don't know this, but like past six months I was going through a real dark time.

Your posts were one of the things that was like a bright light I would look forward to every day I always knew that at least at some point during the day, your posts and your comments would make me smile and I just had the biggest cry when she said that I was happy tears because I thought that's why I post right?

It's stuff like that. That's why I post because if I can make an impact on someone's day, uh, that again goes back to the deep visceral connections, right? The deep visceral humanity, right? Back to our title, right? We're not [01:07:00] human enough in our field. Mhm. Right. I would try to be deeply humanizing if nothing else.

And, you know, given even just that one person as an example, I've gotten more meaningful work from that one relationship than any other cold calling, any other traditional, you know, seventies way of doing business, quality of the work, the quality of the relationships, the quality of the clients significantly higher than if I just, again, set up the sales funnel or the other BS that whatever different LinkedIn gurus tell you about.

And again, I, I, I recognize, and it's where I'll say it's what, Mm trying to understand what it is that your ultimate, why, like, why do you do what you do when I became an entrepreneur, I had this, this grandiose vision of trying to build like a consulting company, you know, have it be worth tens of millions of dollars.

I ended up picking a business partner and all that when I building, I ended up building a prison, it was an actual prison for me. And in this new iteration where it's just me. I recognize, yeah, I'm never, I'm not going to create a, you know, the [01:08:00] 1, 000, 000 company, but that's not what I wanted. What I really wanted was actually just the freedom, the freedom to wear this, the freedom to be like, Hey, you know what?

Uh, I don't feel like doing anything today. I'm going to go spend it the kids or I'm going to go out with my wife for today. It was the lifestyle, right? And to me, ultimately recognizing that why was the driving force and being able to now say, okay, yes, does what I do scale. No, it doesn't, but that's okay.

Right. I can't tell you how often it pisses me off. Someone's saying, oh, your business won't scale. I said, you're asking the wrong question. You didn't even ask me, do I want to scale? Right. That's the prerequisite. I don't. Right. I do not want to Right. So to me as a solopreneur, back to your question of, you know, how does this impact your business?

I wish I had done this sooner. Leading with kindness, leading with something other than security. like I said. No one gives a damn about it, um, by just trying to be a good person, develop meaningful relationships. I have [01:09:00] built a life, I built a business that I never thought possible. And like I said, the clients that I get as a result of those relationships end up being clients for years.

And now, unlike how it was when I was trying to build a company. I don't have these short term clients that really drain my energy. I have clients that are friends. I have clients that are with me for years. You don't get that when you do, when you try to scale.

Aj: where it's[01:10:00] 

listen we probably shouldn't just end the Maybe that's the new title.

it's probably[01:11:00] [01:12:00] 

know if

it

Um and think you've of[01:13:00] 

for

in

about how do like Halloween [01:14:00] Vancouver and, uh, country as well. I mean, uh, so it's, uh, it's always a fun, fun thing for the kids. I mean, my, my daughter's now we've gone through it, which she's, um, She's not trick or treating anymore. She's now with her friends. I, I'm no longer cool. I, I argue. not even sure if I was ever cool, but I'm no longer cool.

Dominic: Yeah, years my, my son is six and he's just still at this age. He's in grade two where it's just really fun going, you know, Trick or treating with him, and this year we'll be going with some of his friends, which, which is great. And our golden retriever, we're going to be dressing her up. She's probably going to be a pumpkin.

So, um, we're really looking forward to that more than anything. It's, it's something that, uh, at least In Vancouver, we have fairly mild Octobers, so it's either going to be a nice, cool night, not super cold, uh, or it'll, uh, or it'll be raining. But, uh, uh, either way, it's, a ton of fun, right? [01:15:00] We live in the community, the neighborhood that we live in has lots of great people.

Decorations and stuff. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's really busy on Halloween night. So I'm actually really looking forward to it. And this year my son, uh, asked to be a happy snowman. So he's going to be a happy snowman. That's a Of family model right So it

Aj: you

you[01:16:00] 

I [01:17:00] AJ. Um, I'll bring this to back to my corporate days, actually. Um, so, um, something that no one knows is that during an audit, um, with, uh, dealing with an external auditor, um, the audit. Order said, okay, well, there's a bunch of red items here. You know, what, what, what do we do about that? Um, I, I had been trained to say, well, this is what we're going to [01:18:00] do, right?

Dominic: Even though, you know, my, I knew my bosses had no intention of ever doing it. So I said, you know what? Here's what my bosses want me to say to you, but they're actually a bunch of bullshitters. They have no intention of doing any of this. Um, so, this was actually towards the end of May. Just as it was starting to burn out AJ where I was in the no longer get no luck.

Yeah, there think so Yeah, no one no knows that There's what I did

he did the the of audits right look somebody's said those most answer ever.[01:19:00] 

Aj: you for

I'm[01:20:00] 

poorly and

that's interesting

time to this go[01:21:00] 

you know and I was as quickly add to that, you know on that same day. This is later on that epiphany You know you asked me about burning out and my wife saying it was sort of half of the awakened the other half happened after That audit on that same day, I went to go watch, um, one of the Batman movies was when the Christian Bale trilogies, and I've always been someone that could feel something in heart.

Dominic: I could feel fire, right? And I could feel that going away. And there was the line, I don't remember which Batman movie it was, but I remember sitting in an IMAX theater watching it. And, uh, and the line was, you know, you either live long enough to, you know, See yourself become a villain or you die a hero. I thought, Jesus Christ, like that Batman just saved my effing life.

Like, and it was actually after that, that couple was what my wife told me earlier in the week. The day after is when I put in my resignation. So my wife and Batman saved me.[01:22:00] 

other way, but

Aj: that

cause he Yes, that's right. Harvey Dent. Yep.

right I got to make a change Credit to Christopher Nolan as well. I should thank him as well.

good you're going to pick a movie

to change your life or have That's those [01:23:00] Christian you he

that

And

I want to give you a quick You know All I want to say AJ is thank for the gift [01:24:00] of your friendship, my friend. I'm very grateful to call you a friend. And if you're ever out in Vancouver, you let me know as I look forward to meeting you in person one day, whether it's at a conference. I can't promise I'll ever be in Minnesota, but I'm sure at some point the universe will allow us to meet at some point.

Dominic: I look thanking you for your friendship in person, but thank you for today, my friend.

Aj: I appreciate it Yeah If

If I'm [01:25:00] Okay.